Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

The standard form COT3 used by ACAS does not deal with any of these sorts of issues. They only get included if people who know enough to insist on additional terms - and most don't, and if they had a lawyer then they probably wouldn't be using a standard COT3 anyway - CA's my clients enter into are written by me and not ACAS or the employers lawyers. But you are making a mistake that people make all the time - you are assuming that a settlement means you have won. It means no such thing. There is no prospect of "settling" that it is an unfair dismissal - that is not the purpose of CA's. Only a tribunal can determine something is an unfair dismissal.

My settlement was always referred to as a commercial settlement with no admission of liability to make this fact clear. The lawyer also explained the meaning of that was that it would be cheaper for the other side to offer the settlement rather than to go on to the ET even if they won, because if they won they wouldn't get money out of me, they just wouldn't have to pay me, but they would still incur legal costs.

[Eloise01]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

My settlement was always referred to as a commercial settlement with no admission of liability to make this fact clear. The lawyer also explained the meaning of that was that it would be cheaper for the other side to offer the settlement rather than to go on to the ET even if they won, because if they won they wouldn't get money out of me, they just wouldn't have to pay me, but they would still incur legal costs.

The term commercial settlement really has no meaning - they are all, in effect, commercial settlements. The only purpose of a settlement is that it will cost you more, one way or another, to go to tribunal. It is a cost analysis and nothing more - the chances of winning are not part of the equation, except in so far as each side (if they are smart and they aren't always) will consider what they stand to gain or lose by settling.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

laziest employee of the year and never did a stroke of work...

How about an ambiguous statement such as, "We wish that we had got Mr X working for us" ?

[Secretary78]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

Thanks everyone for your replies.

What I need to know is, if I put on job application forms under reason for leaving previous job: “contract ended” or “resigned”, would a future employer have any right to consider my application false (and possible take disciplinary action against me) if they discovered at a later date that I had been sacked (albeit unfairly). Or should I just put on the form that I was unfairly dismissed?

The Compromise Agreement I signed at the time of the payout states: The employee acknowledges the employment ended due to dismissal.

[Eloise01]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

The employment ended due to dismissal. Therefore if you put anything else it is a lie. And a lie or misleading statement on an application form can lead to disciplinary action being taken against you which may resut in dismissal. Either say nothing or tell the truth.

[MIKE770]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

or unfair dismissal = admitted by previous employer, but you will have to understand that even that may go against you by some companies = as an incident was brought about albeit whos fault it may of been, a Tribunal if there was one would in some circumstances order the re-employment which you could refuse, but questions mark by new employer can be a problem, I had this after an admittance of unfair dismissal a few decades ago, in fact applied for 48 different jobs = only 2 interviews, 3 thanks for contacting us (no luck), and the rest no reply, even travelled for job interviews at own Ł30 weekly income from Doe and did not get inteview with the firm I travelled to see as they were covering employment exchange rules (but already had someone in mind), another couple after travelling 200 miles had interview, over qualified. 2 other thravell interviews no reply. Ended washing up on a motorway service area etc at least started straight away or with in week of interview, they were not interested in previous employment problem if it was not fraud.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

Thanks everyone for your replies.

What I need to know is, if I put on job application forms under reason for leaving previous job: “contract ended” or “resigned”, would a future employer have any right to consider my application false (and possible take disciplinary action against me) if they discovered at a later date that I had been sacked (albeit unfairly). Or should I just put on the form that I was unfairly dismissed?

The Compromise Agreement I signed at the time of the payout states: The employee acknowledges the employment ended due to dismissal.

That doesn't sound like a very good compromise agreement at all! :mmph: The whole idea is to negotiate an agreed reference in addition to the payout so you can successfully apply for jobs in the future, not much point in getting some money that will evaporate rather quickly if you can't find work in a long time!

I myself had a compromise agreement and there was nothing of the sort, an agreed reference typed up by me was part of the agreement brokered by my solicitor through ACAS. I realize what Eloise says about such things not being water-tight in terms of not being able to check what was said when someone actually asks for a reference, but, at least in my case, it seemed to work because I had no trouble finding work even after being dismissed for alleged gross misconduct.

A friend of mine also got a similar agreement after claiming constructive dismissal and another Beagle also reached a similar agreement last year, and is now happily working in a much better job than the one he was dismissed from!

I realize it may be too late to negotiate something beter at this stage... :tinysmile_cry_t:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

or unfair dismissal = admitted by previous employer, but you will have to understand that even that may go against you by some companies = as an incident was brought about albeit whos fault it may of been, a Tribunal if there was one would in some circumstances order the re-employment which you could refuse, but questions mark by new employer can be a problem, I had this after an admittance of unfair dismissal a few decades ago, in fact applied for 48 different jobs = only 2 interviews, 3 thanks for contacting us (no luck), and the rest no reply, even travelled for job interviews at own Ł30 weekly income from Doe and did not get inteview with the firm I travelled to see as they were covering employment exchange rules (but already had someone in mind), another couple after travelling 200 miles had interview, over qualified. 2 other thravell interviews no reply. Ended washing up on a motorway service area etc at least started straight away or with in week of interview, they were not interested in previous employment problem if it was not fraud.

Just curious here, did you actually tell prospective employers about your dismissal BEFORE you even had an interview, i.e., at the time of applying? Because that question usually only arises at the interview stage, it's not something that goes on your CV or covering letter.... :ohwell:

References are normally requested once they've decided to offer you a job, subject to suitable references and sometimes other things as well such as credit checks, medical, etc. although some recruiters (as opposed to employers) insist on getting references before reaching that stage. :rant:

[Eloise01]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

That doesn't sound like a very good compromise agreement at all!

That assues it was a compromise agreement! I suspect it actually wasn't - it was probably a COT3 (an agreement brokered by ACAS). ACAS brokered agreements are binding, but ACAS are not responsible for advising either party on the contents.

Mind you, if the OP is still filling in an application form they were filling in at the end of February, I suspect the closing date may have passed!

[leclerc]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

Thanks everyone for your replies.

What I need to know is, if I put on job application forms under reason for leaving previous job: “contract ended” or “resigned”, would a future employer have any right to consider my application false (and possible take disciplinary action against me) if they discovered at a later date that I had been sacked (albeit unfairly). Or should I just put on the form that I was unfairly dismissed?

The Compromise Agreement I signed at the time of the payout states: The employee acknowledges the employment ended due to dismissal.

I think I need to put something on here which is not the legal advice bit as Eloise and FP et al can do that. The most important thing you have to get into your head is about how you are able to explain how you got sacked. The most important things and employer wants to know if they consider you as a candidate, is whether the dismissable action was something that is either unresolved or is something that is due to stealing from the employer and is pending in court.
For you yourself, the issue is how do you explain how you were sacked and not sound like someone who is unemployable by the company and you have to make the negative part positive, ie I made a regrettable mistake in not following procedure and was sacked. I accept that this was an error on my part. Or words to that affect. Some employers will simply read dismissed and then move onto the next person. I let my own sacking go round and round my head and I was overlooked for a position during that period of unemployment. I remember going into a job agency where there was a definite start on Monday and when I stated I had been sacked from my previous job, the look on the face of the person I was speaking to spoke volumes and when I left that office I knew I would never be working on the Monday. Later that afternoon, suddenly the job did not exist. When you have been dismissed ultimately you will get that kind of thing but get into your head that being dismissed is not a bad thing UNLESS it involves criminal behaviour, then you are up a creek without a paddle if you remain in the same line of work. I know this is not legal advice but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

[Eloise01]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

I agree Leclerc - but I would still say that the OP has an advantage over you. This dismissal was three years ago and not their last employment, and they have had two jobs since. So I would stick to me original advice - don't give reasons for leaving any employer except the current / last one. Just because someone asks a question does not mean you have to answer it, and few employers are going to even notice or care unless we are talking security or other clearances - in which case they would have to tell the truth anyway! Your average employer is more concerned with what you show them you can offer them on the form rather than whether you listed your reason for leaving on former jobs that aren't even references any more. You, on the other hand, were trying to persuade someone to employ you when your last job ended in dismissal - and that is a different ball game.

Incidentally, in my experience taking an employer to a tribunal and disclosing an unfair dismissal outcome (of a tribunal) is not as big a deterrant as many believe. Most of my clients over three decades have been back in work before their claim was even heard, having told the prospective employer that they are claiming unfair dismissal; and most of the rest obtained jobs within a reasonable period after a tribunal in their favour. Some employers are put off, yes, but mostly because they reckon that you might take them to a tribunal. That's often the sign of a guilty conscience and their knowing there might be grounds to! But in my experience most employers believe that they are good employers (and some of them even usually are good employers) and that there is no risk to them, and that what the person ofers and their honesty are worth more than the risk. On a couple of occasions I have even heard of competitors being delighted to take on someone about the trounce their competition in a tribunal!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

I agree Leclerc - but I would still say that the OP has an advantage over you. This dismissal was three years ago and not their last employment, and they have had two jobs since. So I would stick to me original advice - don't give reasons for leaving any employer except the current / last one. Just because someone asks a question does not mean you have to answer it, and few employers are going to even notice or care unless we are talking security or other clearances - in which case they would have to tell the truth anyway! Your average employer is more concerned with what you show them you can offer them on the form rather than whether you listed your reason for leaving on former jobs that aren't even references any more. You, on the other hand, were trying to persuade someone to employ you when your last job ended in dismissal - and that is a different ball game.

This is very true, if you've had other jobs after being dismissed, there's no need to go into reasons for leaving any previous jobs. However, as for not being a reference any more, some employers will want to know what you've been doing over the past five years, this is particularly true of the financial sector, although they tend to be more interested in what you did when you were not working rather than when you were! :ohwell:

They will demand an explanation of any gaps and even ask for proof, that certainly was the case with me when I went to work for a US institution (as a contractor invoicing as a ltd company, not even an employee). They wanted to proof of what I was doing when I spent a year living abroad, even went as far as to ask for passport stamps, only I told them if you go somewhere in the EU you don't get any! Had to show them bank statements, utility bills, etc. abroad, even though the reason they were hiring me was because the person in charge of the project had also been my line manager in my previous job, i.e. she was hiring me again and was my reference, however, I'd only worked for her for just over 2 years and HR demanded a full five year history. :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

A friend of mine went to work for same bank a few years later, as an agency temp, he was even asked to prove he'd been travelling in the US for 2 weeks (had to send copy of passport with stamps) as well as proof that he was claiming benefits when out of work. As there was a period of time when he wasn't claiming (due to being over the savings limit), I had to provide a personal reference for him stating he had, in fact, been unemployed and not claiming benefits for that reason. :wof: Unbelievable but true, that's the City for you! :rant: :rant: :rant:

[Eloise01]

Re: Do I have to reveal past dismissal?

Yes - but I did mention the exception is security or other clearances. Banking is notorious for multiple checks. So it does depend on what the OP is applying (still) for.