Pregnant and work stress generated from incompetent manager

[Guest]

Hi all,
I am after a bit of advice on behalf of my wife who is 21 weeks pregnant.

A bit of a back story, my wife works at a very well known food manufacturer for the past 5 years. At the start, she really enjoyed working at this place until her then manager left and was replaced by her current manager (lets call her A).

According to my wife, since day 1 this new manager (A) has treated her incredibly poorly, its boils down to bad management and somebody who wants to skip through work doing bugger all and expects the wife to pick up the slack.

Fast forward 12 months, the wife at this point had had enough and started to documenting all the “issues” she is having with her new manager (A) and has even raised it on a number of occasions with the managers manager (Lets call her A’ mgr) – nothing got done about it. The problems can range from being blamed for stuff that the wife has had no involvement with, taking full credit for the wife’s work as her own, to piling on the work and expecting the wife to pick up the slack in “over time without pay or time back”. There has even been incidents where the wife’s manager (A) went to her own manager (A’ mgr) to complain about my wife, but in such a way she made no attempts to hide the issue from other staff by either openly talking about it, not closing doors and speaking at volume.

Now she is pregnant, I expected things to calm down a bit; they have not however she managed to get a secondment into another dept under a different manager (Lets call her B) up until she goes onto maternity. The wife likes the new manager (B), they get on really well and it was agreed that the wife would have no or VERY limited involvement in her old dept until she comes back from maternity leave. The wife was over the moon about this however it was short lived.

Although there was an agreement in place regarding her secondment to have limited or no involvement with her old dept, this has not stopped the old dept manager (A) dishing out ridiculous orders to the wife, and she is taking instructions from her new dept manager (B). She is essentially being stretched too thin across a number of departments, and admittedly a number of mistakes have been made (although the mistakes should have been picked up by the approver so she is not at full blame).

The wife also explains that she is not the only one with a grievance for her old dept manager (A), the college that worked in that dept is also feeling the same effects of this manager (A), and other people in other depts are also aware of the managers (A) shortcomings, however the managers manager (A’ mgr) thinks the sun shines out her her arse!

My real concern is that the wife is 21 weeks pregnant and is receiving all this stress, been torn from one dept to another to the extent that she is coming home in tears and exhausted.

She has a meeting with HR this morning, however I want to do some digging to see where she stands from a legal point of view regarding workplace stress and pregnancy as I am really not happy with her going into work at all to be dealing with this day in, day out and having to deal with the hormonal stresses and quirks that come with being pregnant! She gets a really good maternity package so I am really keen for her to stick it out, but part of me is saying sod it, screw them and jack it in leaving them well and truly in the lurch being understaffed.

Thanks in advance for any advice

[Inca]

Re: Pregnant and work stress generated from incompetent manager

Hiya and to LegalBeagles,,,there is definitely help and advice here...I'm sure someone will pick this thread up shortly

[Eloise01]

Re: Pregnant and work stress generated from incompetent manager

I am afraid that this is not an easy one. In relation to "workplace stress", it doesn't exist! Everyone thinks it does, but there is no such medical term and it isn't a diagnosis at all - if you ask a good doctor they will tell you straight out that albeit used by many GP's, it is a lazy doctors "diagnosis". It is important to understand this because it impacts on your options - especially the realistic options. My medically trained friends and colleagues tell me that if "stress" is used at all as a diagnosis, then the correct term is "situational stress" and should generally be alongside a further diagnosis such as "anxiety" or "depressive disorder" which is determined by the symptoms exhibited and not by the alleged cause of the symptoms. That is because it is impossible for a third party, which a doctor is, to ascribe cause to another party, based on their patients uncorroborated word.

When this then passes to the "legal world" it is the degree of corelation between the circumstances of the medical evidence and the evidence of contributory wrongdoing by the employer that establishes the possibilities of a "case". And because that is very, very difficult to do, most cases are non-starters. I know that you aren't looking for a case as such here, but the context of this is very important to understanding what you actually have evidence in in this - and you have to objectively ruthless with evidence to determine what it actually says. And when we do that with the things mentioned here, we actually have a very weak set of circumstances.

• The wife gets blamed for things she didn't do. Sorry, but "blaming" isn't per se unlawful. Yes, it's poor management - which also isn't unlawful. It's not "fair" as the world defines "fair" (the law using a very different yardstick), but it isn't unlawful.
• The manager taes credit for things she has done. Welcome to the world of work. That is so common that if we held a straw poll I think we would find few employees who haven't experienced this at some time - and it also isn't unlawful.
• She's expected to do too much work and ends up having to work uncompensated overtime. It may be an "expectation" - but unless it is a contractual requirement, then people can be disappointed in their expectations - you work your contractual hours and then you leave work, and if you don't, that's your choice. Since slavery was abolished it is impossible to force someone to work!

Those are just examples - what appears unreasonable to her or to you may be unreasonable - but being unreasonable isn't "illegal". Nor is being a bad manager. As such, the employer has done nothing obviously unlawful in relation to the stress she is under, andit is arguable that she contributed to this herself through her actions. Did she submit a formal grievance on these matters? I think from reading between the lines that she may have done just about everything but submit a formal grievance. And without that formal grievance, this history pales to relative irrelevance in this current situation - if you are going to complain then you need to do so in a timely fashion, and if you don't you lose credibility in relation to what you are saying. And it is hard to "pin" the cause of the situational stress on a negligent action of the employer. In very basic terms, if it's that much of a problem, you would have dealt with it and you didn't. Simply having a word with the managers manager isn't dealing with it and it isn't a grievance. In every case were employees have successfully evidenced that their stress is work related, it has been because they have substantial evidence of raising the matters through formal processes and procedures and can thereby demonstrate a lack of appropriate action taken by the employer - that lack of appropriate action being the basis for a case in law.

So the crux of this is what is happening now. She has a secondment. There are clear terms to that secondment and a clear management line through manager B who is now responsible for her. So her first step needs to be to raise the fact that the amount of work and the actions of the former manager in continuing to issue work and instructions is causing problems in relation to excessive demands and conflicting demands which are having a detrimental impact on her health and on business outcomes (because mistakes are being made which would not otherwise be made). She needs to discuss with the manager how the manager can support her in changing this situation, and she needs to be clear in stating the effects that the situation is having, both personally and professionally (and in terms of the business). She needs to be looking for an agreed set of actions it would be useful, if the manager doesn't produce an "action list" if she followed this up with a brief email outlining what they discussed and what actions were agreed as a result.

One thing that should be done is a risk assessment in relation to her pregnancy and workplace risks (and all the things she is complaining about are legitimate concerns to raise in such an assessment - they are not simply about the environment). If she has already had one done, she can still ask the manager for a repeat, due to the stresses and demands she is working under. If it hasn't been done, she should be asking for one anyway - in law they must be done for all pregnant employees. And the risk assessmnet is another way of getting the problems and issues into the formal arena where the employer must act.

If these do not produce positive outcomes, then she must go formal - a grievance. But it is best to exhaust positive and pro-active methods of solving a problem before you decide to go there, because "cans" and "worms" always figure prominantly when things enter a formal stage.

The other option is to do none of this, or to do this and go off sick. If she has a good maternity package, the chances are that she has company sick pay too? But like anything else, there are things to consider. If she is signed of on pregnancy related grounds then that is "easiest" for her but solves none of the problems you are discussing here, and she is simply delaying them until, presumably, she goes back and they start again. But if the grounds are not pregnancy related - i.e. "normal sickness" - then the periods count for managing sickness absence policies and redundancy selection processes. On the other hand, albeit a pretty useless diagnosis, "work related stress" with a clear opinion from the doctor that this is not caused by her pregnancy but that it may put her pregnancy at risk would certainly result in a flurry of activity by the employer.

What is very clear is that she must be decisive. She must either decide to do something, or she must decide to do nothing and live with it. There is never a half way house. That has nothing to do with pregnancy - there just aren't half way houses in employment law. And everything you have described her doing so far seems to fall into the half way house category. She has gone "so far" and then dropped it and lived with it. That is actually a more stressful way of dealing with it because she is rehearsing the problems, letting them nag away, but getting no resolutions. If she can't or won't act, then she needs to adopt a "water off a ducks back" approach and not let it get to her. I don't think she can do that, and I don't think you think so either - so she's going to have to stand up for herself, and keep doing so until she gets what she needs to get.

[Guest]

Re: Pregnant and work stress generated from incompetent manager

Eloise01, thank you for the time and effort in your quite lengthy, detailed and observant reply!

I am at work at the moment so not had a "read it and let it sink in" yet but just of the quick read:

You are correct in that a formal grievance has yet to be raised (well, as of this morning anyway), more informal chats with the managers manager which seems to calm things down a touch for a week or so then it’s back to square 1. It’s more than likely that Manager A has got wind of the informal conversation and kept her head down (quite literally, she will resort just to emailing my wife even though she sits opposite/next to her!). Even before today, when we have talked about it I have tried to push her into sorting this out once and for all with a proper discussion, and if that did not resolve it, go and follow up with the grievance procedure. She does not follow through with it though and tries to power through it.

If it wasn’t for us planning a family, she would have walked out of that place a while ago, but with the package she has got it was worth at the time sticking with it. As for sick package, I understand there is something in place but I cannot remember what it is.

She has had her health and safety risk assessment review, this was done at the start of Jan but I, and I am not sure she was not aware that this type of subject was suitable for that meeting.

Depending upon the outcome of today’s meeting with HR, I may consider asking her to go to the doc about it for their advice. She has ~4 weeks to go before her next midwife appointment, but I think it would need to happen before then. As you say if she does get signed off, it should at least make the employer realise that the situation has got a little out of hand.

Again, thanks for your response and we shall see where it goes from here!

[Eloise01]

Re: Pregnant and work stress generated from incompetent manager

Eloise01, thank you for the time and effort in your quite lengthy, detailed and observant reply! We aim to, if not please (not always possible!) at least give frank and honest advice that gives people a clear understanding of their position. Not all sites are the same.

I am at work at the moment so not had a "read it and let it sink in" yet but just of the quick read:

You are correct in that a formal grievance has yet to be raised (well, as of this morning anyway), more informal chats with the managers manager which seems to calm things down a touch for a week or so then it’s back to square 1. It’s more than likely that Manager A has got wind of the informal conversation and kept her head down (quite literally, she will resort just to emailing my wife even though she sits opposite/next to her!). Even before today, when we have talked about it I have tried to push her into sorting this out once and for all with a proper discussion, and if that did not resolve it, go and follow up with the grievance procedure. She does not follow through with it though and tries to power through it. I think that you have to then make it clear to her (show her the post and the answers) that she has to decide how important this is to her, and if she has to get a resolution then she must plan accordingly - or stop caring about it. She can't sit there in the middle. But I do think that instead of re-hashing a past that is "dubious" at best in terms of evidence that someone has actually done anything wrong in law, it would be better to start this afresh. Treat it as this (what is happening now) is the problem because there is another manager in place now, and a clear secondment agreement - so she has something to hang it on and someone to be responsible for it. What she needs is the here and now fixing, so starting from a discussion with the current manager about how this is impacting on her work etc (if the manager has anything about them, they aren't likely to be pleased at having their toes - and their work - stepped on my someone else anyway), and ratcheting it up when and if needed.

If it wasn’t for us planning a family, she would have walked out of that place a while ago, but with the package she has got it was worth at the time sticking with it. As for sick package, I understand there is something in place but I cannot remember what it is.

She has had her health and safety risk assessment review, this was done at the start of Jan but I, and I am not sure she was not aware that this type of subject was suitable for that meeting. If an employee thinks that a new risk assessment is required then they can ask for one to be done. Regulatuon 16 assessments specifically refer to any risk to the health and safety of a new or expectant mother, by reason of her condition, or to that of her baby, from any process or working conditions or physical, biological or chemical agents. So the assessment is not limited to environmental factors but anything that puts her or her baby at risk. There are a number of studies that evidence that stress during preganancy may be linked to risk factors both to mother and child - it would be a foolish employer who took risks.

Depending upon the outcome of today’s meeting with HR, I may consider asking her to go to the doc about it for their advice. She has ~4 weeks to go before her next midwife appointment, but I think it would need to happen before then. As you say if she does get signed off, it should at least make the employer realise that the situation has got a little out of hand.

Again, thanks for your response and we shall see where it goes from here!

I do think that you/she needs to be aware that this problem is not "pregnancy related". The preganancy gives a convenient hook to hang her complaints on so that she can seek a resolution; and gives an imperative to the employer to do so. But a great deal of this overall problem appears to be somewhat of her own making. I am not ascribing blame to the "victim" - simply observing that she deliberately chose not to pursue certain options; she allowed herself to respond to an expectation that she would work extra hours by doing it, etc., etc. Tackling issues does not have to mean charging in like a bull in a china shop, but it does mean that you need to have a planned strategy which you intend to carry out! You may not appreciate this point of view, but in one sense, manager A is a perfectly good manager - she knows how to get things done, she knows who will do them best, and she achieves this without additional cost or resource to her employer. That is the sort of manager that many employers are perfectly happy with! Don't assume she is incompetant - she appears to be perfectly competant at arranging things around her to achieve her ends and get things done. And your wife has effectively been colluding with this. It may not be my preferred style of manager. It may not be yours. But it is a legitimate model of management - all the employer cares about is "getting things done". In the face of that, your wife needs to decide what her boundaries are, draw the line in the sand, and stick to it. If she won't work extra hours, then she won't. And so on.

Although I suspect that in the near future she will find that some "small further conflicting demand" - and they do demand! - will force her to start doing this whether she wants to or not.