Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

yehbut Wales - you're a Ma -yan! And you're talking about social bullying. When it's the more surreptitious workplace thing and you have to prove it happened to keep your livelihood it's not so easy

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

At present, there appears to be little incentive for employers to crack down on workplace bullying. In fact, the present government, pandering, as always, to the Raving Right of the Conservative Party, hard right wing employers and think tanks, is doing more to encourage it with their demolition of employment rights than crackdown on it. Workplace bullying costs the British economy £26 billion per year. Just think what could be done with that money if there was a really tough crackdown on workplace bullying.

In answer to MissFM's question, keeping a diary of incidents of bullying is something that can be done. This is the advice given by police forces to those suffering anti-social behaviour and it provides a chronological record of such behaviour. Bullying is anti-social behaviour and should be treated as such.

In actual fact BB - there is no redress is there? The bullies win.

[wales01man]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Missfm
the main thing im trying to get over is how hard it is to obtain evidence,
I think its true that bullies start young maybe at school and get pleasure no doubt by bullying anyone weaker than themselfs,as for the being a man i have meet women who would treat bullies the same way as me and i would not pick an argument with them.
I have found that real hard men dont bully and dont brag they just stay in the background without the need to show their strength a bully will only act one on one that what makes it so hard to prove,
have to agree with bluebottle on many of the things he says about erosion of employment protection this opens up all sorts of problems,i strongly beleive if you do the job you are paid to do you must have protection but it must always be possible to dismiss those who cant but only where a clearly defined set of rules are followed,having always been self employed for me not doing the job meant no pay i carried no one and no one carried me.above all i had no bully to contend with

[bluebottle]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

In actual fact BB - there is no redress is there? The bullies win.

Health and Safety legislation can be used in certain circumstances, but unless Cameron and Co desist from their demolition of employment rights, employers will be able to get away with wrecking people's lives without fear of redress or repercussion.

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Missfm
the main thing im trying to get over is how hard it is to obtain evidence,
I think its true that bullies start young maybe at school and get pleasure no doubt by bullying anyone weaker than themselfs,as for the being a man i have meet women who would treat bullies the same way as me and i would not pick an argument with them.
I have found that real hard men dont bully and dont brag they just stay in the background without the need to show their strength a bully will only act one on one that what makes it so hard to prove,
have to agree with bluebottle on many of the things he says about erosion of employment protection this opens up all sorts of problems,i strongly beleive if you do the job you are paid to do you must have protection but it must always be possible to dismiss those who cant but only where a clearly defined set of rules are followed,having always been self employed for me not doing the job meant no pay i carried no one and no one carried me.above all i had no bully to contend with

Thank you Wales - true - me too, always self-employed. Still looking for an answer, though, for those that are employed by others (particularly in the public sector) and abused; need to know what proof of abuse will carry weight in court.

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Dear All - just a short note to acknowledge and thank you all for chipping in with some words of advice and wisdom on this subject matter which is linked to my original request for help following bullying at work and subsequent redundancy.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

"People" have had the answer - twice. "People" didn't like either answer. Evidence cannot be manufactured and evidence either exists or it does not. Asking what evidence is necessary is no different than me asking you how long this piece of string in my hand is. The OP has already stated that their only evidence is a "belief" - that does not count as evidence. On that basis they were given sound legal advice as to how to construct an argument which has legal merit. They were exceptionally insulting about that advice and me personally - and in fact made it clear that I have "no right" to be posting on this site at all. I will waste no further time on this matter.

Why hold back?
Tell him what you really think!

[Inca]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I did warn that ship had sailed.........sometimes it's advisable to THINK before you post.a diatribe against someone trying to help.( and OP was very rude)

[CleverClogs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

One would need proof of direct input (by the alleged bully or by a close friend thereof) into the redundancy selection procedure.

And what form would that proof take? (this is what people need to know)

At a guess, an email, internal memo or letter sent by such a person to whoever took the decision, or the minuted presence of such a person at a meeting wherein the redundancies were discussed.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I'm bumping this up probably for Eloise01 - if you're willing to say - or if there is anyone else who actually knows the answer - please could you tell us what evidence would be needed to prove workplace bullying at a tribunal, or in court?

Again, my guess would be several complaints from different members of staff.

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

To Milliitant, MissFM, BlueBottle, CleverClogs and anyone else who can help me:-

People were job-matched in my absence whilst signed off sick. The job-matching criteria was based on the following: - a) When post is in a defined function; b) the post has to match the current salary banding and c) where the job remained substantially the same i.e. at least 51% the same.

I have looked at the new structure in the 'receiving' organisation, and in my opinion, I qualify for job matching based on all the three criteria. But I was not informed about the job matching process at the relevant time and as a result I was not asked to participate along with the rest of the workforce.

My question to members:-
My question is how might I play this back to management so that I put the onus on them to justify the selection for redundancy when my other colleagues were job matched to the new structure. I cannot prove that management took a dim view of my complaint against one of their peers, but that is exactly the situation. I was the most experienced member of the team and I had been in the same role for 4-years whilst the ones who were transferred across were relatively new employees.

Because I'm too close to the situation which is personal, and following the bullying - my challenge is to construct an objective and hopefully balanced article that clearly articulates the issues. I have a deadline to meet in filing this complaint which is this Friday 15 March.

Can anyone help please? Many thanks. Regards. Tigs

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I did warn that ship had sailed.........sometimes it's advisable to THINK before you post.a diatribe against someone trying to help.( and OP was very rude)

But in fairness Inca, what exactly did I say which is rude? Please can I urge you to read my original request for help and the responses that I received. Have you taken time to read my posts? if you perceive that I've been rude, then it follows that you're implying that I've broken the rules of the forum which I'll never do. If possible, please read the content of my comments and I'm sure you'll find that at no point have I been rude, I was merely commenting on the tone of the advice offered by ONE member and I won't say anything further about this.

LB members have given me invaluable assistance which is priceless. They have done so in their own time using their own resources and knowledge and it will impossible to get such a resource free of charge any where in the world.

I'll never do anything to jeopardise my membership and it's not in my nature to do so. So please bear with me and if your time permits, please read the thread and you'll find that I have not said anything which is untoward to any member. If any of my statements were perceived to be rude, then I have offered my apologies. As I said before, when people come to this site, it is most likely that they need help and some of the problems presented demand that we need to apply some sensitivity to what we say. That's the point I was making. I hope you understand and thank you for your time.

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

There is clearly a terrible misunderstanding here. Looking in from the outside, I don’t believe any offense was intended by anyone – but offense has been taken. Unreserved apologies have also been given.
Tigs – do look again at Eloise01’s advice now that we have looked into it and seen that, sadly, you cannot produce the necessary evidence for any connection between the bullying and the redundancy. Her advice was to separate the issues and advance them on separate fronts and she explained how to do this.
Sometimes things look unsympathetic and personal when they’re not. It's a big problem on forums (Fora?) because we can't see each other's expressions etc., so it's easy to misinterpret intentions.
It is very much to be hoped that Eloise01 will accept your apology and come back to advise you further – there is no-one else here with her expertise in employment law and its application in practice. As she rightly says sympathy (which I can offer you in Spades!) never won a tribunal.

[Inca]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

The tone of your narrative makes me wonder if you should be contributing to this site at all. What is the purpose of possessing an expertise if you can't communicate it in a way that helps the recipient?

You deign to think questioning the right of a member (any member) to contribute to LB is anything BUT rude? Obviously I went to a different charm school than you and this post marks the end of any contribution by me.

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

There is clearly a terrible misunderstanding here. Looking in from the outside, I don’t believe any offense was intended by anyone – but offense has been taken. Unreserved apologies have also been given.
Tigs – do look again at Eloise01’s advice now that we have looked into it and seen that, sadly, you cannot produce the necessary evidence for any connection between the bullying and the redundancy. Her advice was to separate the issues and advance them on separate fronts and she explained how to do this.
Sometimes things look unsympathetic and personal when they’re not. It's a big problem on forums (Fora?) because we can't see each other's expressions etc., so it's easy to misinterpret intentions.
It is very much to be hoped that Eloise01 will accept your apology and come back to advise you further – there is no-one else here with her expertise in employment law and its application in practice. As she rightly says sympathy (which I can offer you in Spades!) never won a tribunal.

Thank you MissFM, I take all that on board and I'll have another read of Eloise01's narrative with a more positive outlook, and hopefully begin got construct my argument using her perspectives and context. Despite the limited information, I recognise that there is some material I can use from Eloise01's comments in order to hopefully construct a more cogent argument. So thank you once again for the advice MissFM.