Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

[Sapphire]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I know and I appreciate that point, but I think this time its best we stay out of it.

[Eloise01]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Thanks Sapphy but it's ok. Much as CC knows he's occasionally annoyed, he's right. If people want to collect the very important answers to their critical posts TWO MONTHS LATER and then decide that insulting people who have spent a great deal of time giving them a lengthy and reasoned response that stands up in law - who are we to suggest they don't know what they are doing?

Of course, one has to hope they do, because if their very important problem goes belly up, they have just alienated one of the very few employment law barristers giving free advice on the internet - and on several sites! Shame about that...

[Sapphire]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Okies fair enough Eloise its your call hun, carry on as before CC :grin:

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Dear Eloise01

The LB site is for helping people. I am here to comply with all the directions and regulations governing the use of this site and I’ll never call anyone a ‘bully’.

I am genuinely sorry that you feel I am being rude. I would be the first to apologise if this were the case. I'm not sure what truth you're referring to as you don't have all the relevant facts or information. I don't see any where in my article where I say I want sympathy. Do you? But members have responded sympathetically (please read the other responses) because they were genuinely sympathetic. I didn’t deliberately set out to elicit sympathy from other members. I have tried to express exactly why I don't find your response particularly helpful and I really can't say any more than that as this is not the most effective use of my time. There are other LB members out there who have already helped me through e-mail correspondence.

I thank you for your contribution and please let’s not waste this LB resource in this unproductive way.

[Eloise01]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I didn't call you rude. I called you ungrateful. But I agree with you... you are also rude. And I also agree that it is pointless wasting a valuable resource on you. I'm out. Please continue to be as insulting as you wish. It reflects on you in quite the way it should.

[bluebottle]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

In my experience, cases of bullying have to be determined on their individual circumstances. I am aware that bullying is rife in the NHS - a friend of mine is a Director with a major NHS Hospital Trust and has had to investigate such cases. Although bullying within the NHS is nothing new, it seems to have increased since private sector managers were drafted in. This may be coincidence, but that is what my friend has found. I have been told of one case where a private sector manager who had been drafted in to run a mental health unit proved to be a total muppet and it wasn't until a patient committed suicide whilst an in-patient at the unit that the Trust management pointed him in the direction of the nearest Jobcentre. I understand that the unit manager is now a very experienced mental health professional and things seem to be better and more patient-focused, whereas, before, there was too much emphasis on targets and internal politics.

[wales01man]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Hers hoping Eloise01 carries on with her words of advice on this forum people like the OP should be thankful that someone with a vast knowledge and experience of employment law tales time out to help others,im sure Eloise will agree that the advice is given in good faith and it is up to others to take it or ignore it no need to turn against her on the forum if they dont like her advice go somewhere else others like me take a keen interest in most subjects discussed on here and find the advice and support placed on here interesting and informative whether it will ever affect us or not.
Hopefully the forum does not turn into an online slanging match it would put some off contributing

[bluebottle]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Hello Tigs

I cannot be of any legal help, but I have been a Psychiatric Nurse - CPN for many many years and have helped treat too many people than I would like to think of who have suffered with depression, anxiety or other mental health issues as a result of bullying from many walks of life and every part of the hierarchy.

I have never been bullied myself per se but several attempts have been made but in my case the old adage about sticking up to the bully/bullies has stopped it in it's tracks.

I spent several years (approx' 13 years ago) as bullying and Mental Health issues being a particular interest of mine. As in one year with a staggering amount people referred to me by GP's regards this issue.

As you will be aware it is an extremely complex, subtle and emotive subject.

One thing that seemed to resonate with people is the fact that no bully ever acts out of a position of strength, it is always from a position of weakness and insecurity. They may not realise this themselves as in the case of people with narcissistic or grandiose personalities.

One of the most helpful resources we used was Tim Fields web site Bullyonline.
I had the pleasure of discussing with him several ideas and advice many years ago which were so helpful.
http://www.bullyonline.org/
or just search: Tim Fields, Bullying

Hope this is of some help
All the best

Gur....... (just joined, OH of Sairlp)

What you say is very true. Almost 16 years ago, I suffered a very bad Psychotic Episode and spent nearly 18 months in a psychiatric unit recovering from it. Since then, I have had the utmost respect for mental health professionals. Bullying is a major problem and a lot more needs to be done about it. I, too, have noticed that those who bully tend to have narcissistic and grandiose personalities. The other thing I have noticed about them is they fear exposure of their inadequacies and shortcomings.

I agree with you about Tim Fields' website. It is an excellent resource and should be compulsory reading for employers.

[Tigs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Thank you Bluebottle for providing a different dimension to the issue of bullying in the NHS. I am living with it, but at the same time, the support from members on this site has added to my resilience and courage to stand up for 'Acceptable Behaviour' and expose 'Unacceptable Behaviour' in as far as how it has affected me.

[Eloise01]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Hers hoping Eloise01 carries on with her words of advice on this forum people like the OP should be thankful that someone with a vast knowledge and experience of employment law tales time out to help others,im sure Eloise will agree that the advice is given in good faith and it is up to others to take it or ignore it no need to turn against her on the forum if they dont like her advice go somewhere else others like me take a keen interest in most subjects discussed on here and find the advice and support placed on here interesting and informative whether it will ever affect us or not.
Hopefully the forum does not turn into an online slanging match it would put some off contributing

I have no intention of depriving other posters of the advice I can offer because of one ungrateful wretch whose problem was so not serious it took them more than two months to come back and be insulting. Some people have very serious and important problems that cause them to check back on the replies less than every other month - and not to kick in the mouth people with professional advice and skils but, oops, no sympathy. Because sympathy never yet won a tribunal...

[CleverClogs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

I agree with the forensic analysis provided by Eloise; unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, it seems unlikely that a case could be established that tigs had been unfairly selected for redundancy simply because she had accused someone of bullying.

If one unravels the tangled skein of the problem, we have:

1. tigs experiences behaviour from someone that she perceives as bullying
2. tigs makes a complaint about the alleged bullying
3. tigs suffers from the "bullying" and goes sick or is "signed off sick"
4. there is an internal, disciplinary investigation into the allegation of bullying
5. the investigation does not produce enough evidence to require action
6. tigs is still off sick
7. occupational health make a report that tigs may have suffered from workplace related stress
8. the department is to close
9. all staff at work undergo a work matching exercise for redeployment elsewhere
10. tigs, being off sick, does not benefit from "work matching"
11. tigs is declared redundant

If one just looks at steps 1, 2 and 11, one might draw the same incorrect conclusion that tigs did. For example, the likelihood of the department being closed might have made it less likely that any action would have been taken against the alleged bully, especially if they were unlikely to be redeployed elsewhere.

[Inca]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

Steady on Cloggy,,that made sense cos I understood it!!

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

My question to members
I do believe that I have been unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy because I dared to complain about bullying. What might I need to show to demonstrate that this is the case?

.

Is anybody able to give a direct answer to the OP’s original question above?
Supposing Tigs is absolutely factually correct in his/her assessment of the present situation, it’s causes and the events leading up to it, what evidence would be needed to prove this?
Bullying at work (and vindictive action for reporting it) is a recurrent theme on this site and the problem with proving it seems to be that bullies surround themselves with a coterie of sycophants and people afraid that they will be the next target. What evidence would be considered proof that bullying and personally motivated revenge has indeed taken place to those who make the judgment?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying

My question to members
I do believe that I have been unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy because I dared to complain about bullying. What might I need to show to demonstrate that this is the case?

Is anybody able to give a direct answer to the OP’s original question above?

Possibly.

Supposing Tigs is absolutely factually correct in his/her assessment of the present situation, its causes and the events leading up to it, what evidence would be needed to prove this?

I had not supposed that there was any factual inaccuracy in the data presented. I do not believe, however, that there is a direct causal link between the alleged bullying incident(s) and Tigs being selected for redundancy.

Bullying at work (and vindictive action for reporting it) is a recurrent theme on this site and the problem with proving it seems to be that bullies surround themselves with a coterie of sycophants and people afraid that they will be the next target. What evidence would be considered proof that bullying and personally motivated revenge has indeed taken place to those who make the judgment?

One would need proof of direct input (by the alleged bully or by a close friend thereof) into the redundancy selection procedure.

To illustrate how one might be deceived into linking "cause" and "effect", take two factual statements.

1. Italians eat a lot of pasta.
2. Italy has a high rate of organised crime.

So, does eating a lot of pasta cause the rise of organised crime, or does the Mafia determine the Italian diet?

[MissFM]

Re: Unfairly and selectively marked for redundancy following complaint about bullying


CC|:"To illustrate how one might be deceived into linking "cause" and "effect", take two factual statements.

1. Italians eat a lot of pasta.
2. Italy has a high rate of organised crime.
   So, does eating a lot of pasta cause the rise of organised crime, or does the Mafia determine the Italian diet?"
   
   Well of course it doesn't! That is what's known as a "logical fallacy".
   
   But - we all know that bullying in the workplace is rife - either by personal experience or by overwhelming anecdotal evidence. My question was - what would constitute legal proof?
   
   Not what would not constitute proof .