Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

[Inca]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Flipping Heck Eloise,some folks would pay a Kings ransom for your advice,,fair play to you,you know what you'e talking about and give your advice freely,Good on ya girl
I hope your OH gets on ok sairlp.

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

The employer must provide you with copies of the documents upon which they intend to rely to hear the case against you. That does not, however, mean that they must provide you with the report completed by the fraud team - they are correct that if this report includes third party details they can either refuse or redact information (that's in relation to the DPA provisions). And employment law does not opertae in the same way that criminal law does, and the employer only has to prove that they have a reasonable belief that you have committed misconduct, which is a much lower level of evidence, and given what they have, and your admission, they really don't need anything more.

I would definitely advise against saying that your husband had put you down as the contact - stop and think about what you just said. Your husband, knowing he was off sick from work, put your name down as the contact on the paperwork for the employment - that begins to sound like deliberate planning, and not an unfortunate error of judgement. He needs to stick (and I hope he has) to the simplest and most innocuous version. It was never intended to be "his job", he was helping you out because it all proved to be much harder than you thought it would be, it never occurred to him that this was "work"; but he holds his hands up that it was, that it was a really foolish error of judgement and he is willing and able to repay any sick pay paid in error because of this because he definitely had no intention to defraud.

Alongside that he needs mitigation - this is the stuff that isn't relevant to the case, but which he wants them to think about in relation to the outcome. I would suggest something along the lines of:

• He had absolutely no intention to defraud and will pay back - better to lose £100 now than your job
• Long employment record with no previous misconduct
• Impaired judgement - his medical condition meant that he really didn't understand/ think about the implications of helping you out with the work that you had taken on. Would your GP write a letter supporting this - it may help if they would.
• If, and it may be a big if, his manager at work were prepared to write a character reference supporting him (something along the lines of "can't believe Mr Sairlp would deliberately do such a thing; excellent member of staff; hardworking, conscientious...." that also may help - although it may be a long shot in the asking because people generally don't like getting involved in things.

To be honest, in the face of possible dismissal, I would also seriously recommend begging and pleading. In the end, if it may save your job then humble pie and lost face is nothing - bearing in mind that he is a nurse and this is a fraud offence, this is a reportable offence in his line of work, and whilst I do not want to worry you any more than you are, this could blight his employment record for nursing employment of any type. So any outcome short of dismissal has to be considered a plus.

In relation to the changing dates of the disciplinary hearing, has he indicated to the employer that he wants to proceed whilst off sick - I think, but am not sure that he's now off sick again? It is possible that current sickness is the cause of the delay. Most employers, and definitely NHS employers, would be cautious about proceeding with a disciplinary whilst someone is off sick, certainly at an "early stage" of sickness, unless the person indicated that they wanted to. Although I don't want this to be taken as false hope, it may help his position if he does. I am afraid that despite his former record of illness, stress / depression is the new "back ache" in employers terms. That is not to diminish the fact that all of these conditions can be very debilititating - they are all also very easy to fake! I am afraid that it has become the fashion for a great many employees facing disciplinary allegations (particularly ones that they are guilty of) to suddenly become far too stressed to attend a hearing. That's a very cynical comment - but it is nevertheless true and many employers are even more cynical than that! I have worked closely with many trades unions, and I have always advised their officials that they are best advised to not "play the stress card" unless it is absolutely unavoidable and their member is demonstrably unable to manage a hearing of any sort even with adjustments (like breaks). It shouldn't count aganst people, but I am afraid this is the real world and it does - and it is impossible to evidence the thoughts that go through peoples heads about such matters. I know that disciplinaries are stressful, but that cannot be avoided, and delaying doesn't make them less stressful, whoever or whatever causes the delay.

If you need any further help do let me know - and I would definitely say that if this doesn't go they way you hope (i.e. anything less than dismissal is great) then it would be worth an appeal, although in legal terms is would be a non-starter of a case. But employers do have greater flexibility than the law if they chose to exercise it. If you do post, and I don't see it - I usually hang around the employment board - just PM me again to alert me you've posted.

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Elouise please don't worry about losing friends, here the advice to our posters is the most important thing, and if mistakes are made we need to know

i know that all those I am privileged to call friends will be only too glad to commit this info to memory to help future posters, and not take offence.

Thanks for that. It really is appreciated, as are the comments from others. I think my concerns arise out of my being banned from another site for "inappropriate posting style", which amounted to being blunt and forthright in my advice; and having on many occasions been abused and attacked for not telling people what they wanted to hear. It leaves one a little "fragile". As I said elsewhere here, I don't do tea and sympathy when it comes to employment law - tea and sympathy is best done by people who are good at it, and it has never been known to win a case. My job is to win cases, or if I can't (in the context of advice on sites like this) then to give people the most accurate advice I can and suggest any strategies for a "best shot". This particular post obviously raised a lot of sympathy from people, and I can see why, and sometimes sympathy gets in the way of distilling realities.

Wales01man - I see your point of view, but the fact that this is the NHS and tax payers money isn't really relevant as far as I am concerned. Any employer faced with this siutaion of evidence that someone is working whilst also off sick would very likely take the same view in law, and they would be quite right to. It would be fraud whoever the employer is, intentional or not, just as falsifying your timesheet is fraud in any employment situation. Who pays the bill for the employment absolutely shouldn't be a factor. When you are sat in the position is is incredibly easy to become paranoid and very easy become overly emotive about things, and I think that the "vendetta" comments are little more than that. The likely fact is that the fraud investigators found out exactly the same way as the DWP did with regards to your annuity. The DWP has records of employment related payments, including claims for SSP (which the OP was claiming, whether they realised or not). They would also have records of all payments which relate to taxable income - so Yellow Pages or whoever, would have provided the DWP with records of who they had made payments to. These two records togther would have, at the very least, raised a "blip enquiry" and would have been passeed to their own investigative staff. And it probably went from there to the NHS fraud team. The fact that it took so long to emerge would support this guess. If someone had arrted him out, it would have probably been much swifter. People forget that all these departments actually work together! The difference is that had it been a private sector employer, the query would probably have gone from the DWP to the OP and an employer wouldn't have been involved / informed. Which may still have led to some uncomfortable questions under caution and possibly, but probably not, a court case. The OP's downfall was probably being employed by a department of the government who share information between departments. Not an excuse no, but an explanation - and the reason why in almost any other sector of employment this probably wouldn't have come to the employers attention.

[Inca]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Me ole Muv used to say 'Tell the truth and shame the devil'........and thats what you do.It's better to know all the facts however harsh they sound and the OP appears to appreciate it too

[wales01man]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Eloise
I gree with you just have one issue i said about the NHS being publicly funded as another example of public money as are benefits so many on here and everywhere soon slag of cheats but feel in some way for people like the OP in our anuity case she genuinly didnt know about the money the letters from the DWP had her worried and made her feel like a criminal and after filling in their forms took another 5 weeks for the response,in the case on here they knew they did wrong now is the time to accept that im positive that the investigators take different views when the accused admits or denies the so called offence ,
Please keep posting your advice is very interesting and the way you say it straight respect to you

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Eloise
I gree with you just have one issue i said about the NHS being publicly funded as another example of public money as are benefits so many on here and everywhere soon slag of cheats but feel in some way for people like the OP in our anuity case she genuinly didnt know about the money the letters from the DWP had her worried and made her feel like a criminal and after filling in their forms took another 5 weeks for the response,in the case on here they knew they did wrong now is the time to accept that im positive that the investigators take different views when the accused admits or denies the so called offence ,
Please keep posting your advice is very interesting and the way you say it straight respect to you

To be fair, the OP admitted the truth from the start. To be honest I think their story is plausible. Daft decision, but no intent - the wife intended to do the work for a bit of extra cash and utterly underestimated what a hard job it is for a pittance. So hubby helped out a bit. I have no evidence for that belief, and it doesn't change the actual facts, but my experience is that people rarely take my advice so well when it isn't what they want to hear and when they are lying! Those looking to evade responsibility generally want a miracle cure and not a bandage!

I have paid and continue to pay an awful lot of tax, so I am not a fan of anyone who steals the money I intend to be used for supporting people who need it. But I am also aware of the fact that some people go out of their way to cheat the system, and some really do make mistakes that were never intended to be cheating, but still are. Unfortunately it is the deliberate thieves who tar the others. Disability benefits are a great example. The tests and methods employed by ATOS are appalling and result in distress for genuinely ill people who deserve support. But really, if we are honest, they get away with it despite questions and concerns about their conduct because everybody knows of someone who "has a medical condition that prevents them from working", but apparently doesn't interfere with them sprinting down the pub and knocking back ten pints! I've come across people like that, and most of us have. So the ingrained sympathy people generally have for people who are ill gets tempered by the fact we know some people are taking the proverbial living off what we worked damned hard for. And that is when lines become blurred and people like ATOS can step up. They are doing what they are doing because the government wants them to - if the government wanted the opposite they would do that too . It's just a contract of work to them. And the government can do it because the general population is ambivalent - they want the benefits bill reducing, they want the cheats finding, etc., and there is a certain price to pay for that which they may moan about if it smacks them in the face, but which they can generally forget about or ignore. At an extreme, it's the death penalty debate. Lots of people support it, but none of it's supporters can come up with a satisfactory answer to the question, what do you do if you find out someone was innocent after their execution, because you can't take it back. Inconvenient truths are easier ignored!

But wow, I digress!

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Hi
Regards my husband putting down my name on all paperwork, he would have done nothing else, as he was simply collecting the books for me, and was my job. At this period of time my husband was very unwell, would just lie around, ruminating, suffering suicidal ideas, acute distress and anxiety, was quite thought blocked and could barely string a sentence together. After getting a flier through door re delivering Yellow Pages, I decided that I wanted to do this to earn extra cash , I contacted DEYA, and they ran through the procedure, eg the area I wanted to do, timescale, payment etc. They then asked me for my car details etc for their records, once I informed them that I couldn't drive, they asked to speak to my OH as he was going to be driving me around. Unfortunately as mentioned in initial post, there were specific time windows in which the books could be collected, these were during the time when I carry out my other job. I am a childminder, and as we were told that we would need an estate type car due to the amount of books we would have, I was unable to accompany him. The reason being that the child safety seats and kids wouldn't have fitted. At the time my OH was the only driver so with massive reluctance and a great amount of cajoling from myself, he and my eldest son went to collect them for me....oh how I wish it had been a month or so later, then my eldest could have driven and collected them on my behalf, and none of this would be happening .
This type of task would never have bothered my OH normally, but in his state of mind it was sheer effort, as meeting and communicating with anyone caused great anxiety for him. He seriously didn't want to have anything to do with it at all, and didn't have the mental wherewithal or capacity to be undertaking such things. There is no other reason for him putting my details on the paperwork other than the fact that it was my job, he was just kindly( if under duress) helping out his spouse. The NHS have all this information, by way of copies from original forms completed .

Thank you Eloise in trusting in us, means a lot, but as you say, won't really affect the outcome.

The hearing was originally on 27 th Dec, which was his only day off over the Xmas period, and so the manager postponed the date for this reason. He has returned to work now, but was willing to have the hearing whilst still off sick?

I agree re stress/ depression etc being the employees new "backache", and unfortunately seems to be a relatively easy diagnosis to get nowadays, really makes me incensed as makes a mockery of all the poor people who genuinely suffer this horrendous and debilitating illness. My OH was mentally robust until his 40's, and though there is never a "type", he was so emotionally strong and everyone that knew him were amazed that he could become so unwell. He's had a lot of sad personal issues in childhood, losing both his parents at an early age, we lost our home due to spiralling debt, had to move 5 x in a year from rented accommodation to rented accommodation, marital problems etc etc, these events all caught up I suppos
Plus his job is enormously challenging, has worked as psychiatric nurse for 30+ yrs, most recently working in a crisis team, caring for the most vulnerable in an entire county, whilst being horrendously understaffed and feeling unsafe in his working environment. I think this type of job, does eventually take its toll in some way or another...

Any way thanks for invaluable comments, I am now off to deal with another issue....my OH got half pay this month, ho hum, all sent to try us

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Don't read too much into this and you must still make every effort to get GP and character witnesses... but the fact he is not suspended is probably a good sign. There are no hard and fast rules on this, but despite the fact that in law suspension is a neutral act, in a case involving fraud I would expect that the employer would suspend if they genuinely expected dismissal to be the outcome. It isn't guaranteed, but it often flies that way. Does the invitation to the disciplinary say that it might result in dismissal?

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks....meant to mention earlier that his GP has already written a letter, describing my OH mental state, and saying how he had encouraged him to keep a structure to his day and set tasks etc. we've sent this with his case.
when invited to Disciplinary hearing, they just enclosed the Trust Disciplinary Policy, which outlines the various sanctions, the end one being dismissal
Again many thanks

[wales01man]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Despite what i have written before i hope this gets sorted quickly dont these people investigating this know the strain it puts on the accused without prolonging the agony makes it all the worse that the OP OH has some health problems that they know about

[Eloise01]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Thanks....meant to mention earlier that his GP has already written a letter, describing my OH mental state, and saying how he had encouraged him to keep a structure to his day and set tasks etc. we've sent this with his case.
when invited to Disciplinary hearing, they just enclosed the Trust Disciplinary Policy, which outlines the various sanctions, the end one being dismissal
Again many thanks

Hmm yes. But does the letter say directly that dismissal may be an outcome of the hearing? This is the NHS and I expect (sometimes forlornly, but not that often) that they get the letter of the law absolutely right every time. So this really is important. Every disciplinary policy for any employer includes dismissal at the end stage! What does the letter say???

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

Am attempting to attach the letters, any idea how i can do this anyone please...im looking for a paperclip lol!!
Thanks

[MissFM]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

under the reply box click "go advanced" then on attachments find the ones you want in your computer and click "upload"

[sairlp]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

[MissFM]

Re: Been interviewed by fraud dept re allegations of working whilst off sick

:help:don't think it's worked Sairlp - will try bumping!

BUMP for help!