Off Work with Stress advice needed

[kirsty]

Hi

I'm currently off work with Stress due to being treated unfairly by my Manager probably over the past 6 years now. I work excessive hours ranging from 60 to occasionally 100 hours, 6/7 days a week regularly and have been doing so since I started the job 12 years ago. The problem that I have is everytime I try and knock my hours back to say 50 a week, my boss changes his attitude towards me and basically treats me unfairly until I work more hours, then he is fine again. My contracted hours are 40 hours 8am - 4pm Mon-Fri. Although usually I end up working from 8am - 10pm or later and have done a few 30+ hours in one go aswell not returned home to lunchtime the next day.

I have complained on 3 occasions to HR about his behaviour towards me when my hours drop and that it is unacceptable, but I've never followed up a proper grievance for fear of losing my job, as anyone that goes against this manager gets pushed out of the door. No one will stand up to him.

Finally it all got too much that I couldn't take his constant shouting at me and I left the company with work related stress 4 weeks ago. I am on high wages, but only due to the amount of hours worked which are all on a flat rate of pay and am not entitled to company sick pay therefore now on SSP.

I requested to see the HR Director as i received a letter from my boss asking for a meeting with him, but didn't feel I was able to speak to him as he is the cause of my stress. I met with the HR Director and explained all my issues about my Manager and that he was the cause of my stress, he said he would go away and discuss with my boss and issue a report to aid me returning to work. My suggestion to overcome the issue was to move back to a previous office, as they had moved my position into an office with him and it was just unbearable.

On receiving the HR Directors report - the outcome was that I was off work due to work not the way I was treated by my Manager. If I wanted to return to work that would not be a problem, but due to the fact the job was creating the stress (not true it was the Manager). I could return to work doing a different job on a lower wage, in effect demoting me. They stated that my pay would need to be phased downwards over a 6 week period.

My question is can they just say that they can change my role and demote me. This has not been discussed with me properly - I have replied in writing and said the reason for the stress is my Managers treatment of me and not my current role, therefore I would not be prepared to accept a pay cut or change of role as the role was never the problem. I'm awaiting a response.

[labman]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

There are some very knowledgeable people on here about Employment Law, I'm sure they'll be on later. Are you in a union? My understanding is they cannot just change your position unless the need for your previous position has now gone, but wait to see what the people who really know this area say later on.

[miliitant]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

before we speak about change of job tital. tell me

what line of work are you inn

the working hours are exsesive by any standard

have you signed the opt out for the working time directive as well

[teaboy2]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

I agree with Militant we need more details about your working hours and type of work, it sounds like administration and if you have not signed the opt-out form then they (employer) is in breach of working time directive regulations which set a maximum of 48 hours per week unless you have opted out.

Also are others expected to do these kind of hours or just you, how many people in your office doing same or similar work to you do these amounts of hours?

When you say he shouts at you is it abusive language and insulting language or just a raised voice?

Are you being paid time and a half for the hours you work overtime?

Are you getting your correct entitlement to breaks and rest periods?

Weekly rest period laws here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/11/made
Entitled breaks laws here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/12/made
Daily rest periods laws (hours rest your entitled to between each shift/day of work) - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/10/made

Once you answer the above and give us details we can advise much more accurately.

I shall be honest with you - It sounds like they are in breach of working time regulations and bullying and harassment in breach of protection from harassment act 1997. Also the HR manager is wrong to have put the work as being the cause, the report should report acurately as to what you said was causing your stress, so if you said its not the work but the managers atitude then that is what should have been said in the report. Seems they are trying to cover it up - You will probably have no choice but to issue a formal grievance about the manager and the hours your having to work. But don't worry they can not sack you because if they do it will be very expensive for them at tribunal.

Also - NO they can not demote you without your mutual agreement, to do so would be deterimental and unfair treatment which would open the door for constructive dismissal - Especially if they will be expecting you to still do the same type of work.

[bluebottle]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

From what I can see, your employer is blatantly breaching the Working Time Regulations 1998 as you cite instances where you are having less than the 11 hours rest period between shifts required under the Regulations.

In order to clarify the penalties prescribed under the Regulations, "a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum" means up to Ł20,000 and "a fine" means an unlimited fine, which means a court can fine an employer as much as they like.

[kirsty]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

Hi

Ignore name I'm male. Difficult to say too much as there are a lot of other issues not just the above. I work in Mechanical Engineering doing Design/Cad Work and Fabrication. I have opted out of the working time regulations. The whole department works excessive hours, this is due to the Engineering Manager himself working 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. The guy doesn't have a life, he just lives for the company and expects everyone else to work the same hours as himself. If you don't work the hours, he then starts treating you badly and basically bullying you into doing more hours. Once your hours are up he is then all nice again. We have a meeting every day, but every Friday the team gets asks who's working the weekend and if we are not we have to tell him why we can't work! If you can't work he'll say things like - you have no commitment to the company plus many others. He is not from the UK and his management style is to shout and rant and rave at people to get them to do what he wants. The whole company knows what he is like, but no-one will stand up to him or acknowledge his behaviour. In an employee review meeting I had this week with the HR Director he actually admitted to me that my manager was a bad manager and his management skills were zero - obviously this wasn't mentioned in his report!!

I also until 6 weeks ago used to manage the Fabrication team, but he told me that my management style wasn't very good because I didn't get my lads to work the hours he would like. Therefore he was going to put someone else in charge of them and this person also is not from the UK and his style is the same shout at them to get work done. My team 6 weeks ago consisted of me as manager and 4 other members. I was moved more into an office role to concentrate on designing and drawing as we had a large project coming up. I told my manager that I didn't think the guy he was putting in charge of my team would work well as he just shouts and bullies the people he already manages. He is also not Mechanical, therefore I couldn't understand how my Manager even thought this would work - but he believes shouting is the way to go. Within 2 weeks one member was dismissed unfairly (but this is currently in appeal), and this week 2 more members of what was my team have walked out - this is all due to the manager that replaced me shouting at them. The company turn a blind eye to these two all the time. Basically they lie, shout and rant and rave at people. Problem is how to prove it as no-one in the company would dare back you up for fear of losing their job.

I am trying now with the stress at work thing to tell them exactly what these two are like, but the company seem to trying to cover it up.

After finding out today that the Fab Team, now only consists of 1 person who I was told is looking for another job anyway. Also the way they tried to get me back to work by demoting and knocking down my pay and not acknowledging my Manager is the problem - I really don't feel I could ever go back to this company, but not sure legally the way to go. Any ideas????

[Celestine]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

Employment


Constructive dismissal


Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct. Find out what you can do if you feel that you have to leave your job.

What is constructive dismissal?

Constructive dismissal is a form of dismissal. If you resign from your job because of your employer’s behaviour, it may be considered to be constructive dismissal. You would need to show that:

1. Your employer has committed a serious breach of contract
2. You felt forced to leave because of that breach
3. You have not done anything to suggest that you have accepted their breach or a change in employment conditions

Possible examples of constructive dismissal

The reason for leaving your job must be serious - there must be a fundamental breach of your contract. Examples include:

• a serious breach of your contract (eg not paying you or suddenly demoting you for no reason)
• forcing you to accept unreasonable changes to your conditions of employment without your agreement (eg suddenly telling you to work in another town, or making you work night shifts when your contract is only for day work)
• bullying, harassment or violence against you by work colleagues
• making you work in dangerous conditions

Your employer's breach of contract may be one serious incident or the last in a series of less important incidents that are serious when taken together.

• More about changing employment conditions

What to do if your employer's behaviour makes you want to quit

Speak to your manager

Leaving your job should be the last resort. First, speak to your manager and see if you can resolve the problem that way. If the problem is with your manager, you could talk to:

• their manager
• your company's HR (human resources) department
• an employee representative (eg a trade union official), if you have one
• Acas (the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) or another employment advice service

• How to resolve a problem at work

• Employment contracts

Call the Acas helpline

for free, impartial and confidential advice about all employment issues

• Acas helpline

Grievance procedures and mediation

If speaking to your manager or someone else doesn’t work, try to sort out the problem with your employer through your company's standard grievance procedure. In most cases you will be required to have raised the issue through a grievance procedure before taking legal action.
If this doesn't work, and your employer agrees to it, you could try mediation through Acas, where a specialist will try to help you and your employer sort out the problem.

• Problems at work

• Contact details for Acas

Employment Tribunal claims

If talking to your employer or mediation doesn't work and you feel you have to quit, you should first get some advice. You may have a case for unfair or wrongful dismissal following a constructive dismissal. It is often very hard to prove that your employer's behaviour was so bad as to make you leave.

• Employment contacts

• Find a solicitor or advice agency

If you do have a case for constructive dismissal, and you think you can show it was unfair or wrongful, ideally you should then leave your job immediately. Otherwise the employer may argue that, by staying, you have accepted the conduct or treatment.
Also, avoid 'jumping the gun' or resigning before the actual breach of contract occurs. Your employer could then claim there has been no dismissal.

• Employment Tribunals: an introduction

Claiming benefits if you are forced to quit your job

If you leave your job, your Jobcentre Plus can delay your Jobseeker's Allowance for up to 26 weeks. Make sure they understand what's happened and why you had to leave.
If you are taking your case to an Employment Tribunal, it's a good idea to give the Jobcentre Plus copies of your completed Tribunal application forms.
If you can't claim Jobseeker's Allowance, you may be able to claim a hardship payment (a reduced amount of Jobseeker's Allowance).

• Jobseeker's Allowance (money, tax and benefits section)

• How to appeal against a benefits decision (money, tax and benefits section)

[kirsty]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

Sorry forgot to say its a flat rate of pay - no overtime rates. We work bank holidays we work for days on end. I was working on a project for 3 months solid once with only 2 days off during that period. One day was to go to a funeral which I'm sure he even moaned about that day and the other to spend a day with my family. Also on this project as the dealine was ending I worked from 10am sun morning through to 8am monday morning to complete - I was actually ill as well, being sick in a bucket in the workshop at midnight. At the end of this project did I get any thanks no - a few weeks later because I wasn't working 7 days a week - I get the no commitment speech again! Its a joke. The only reason I have stayed for 12 years is the Job and Company are actually fantastic its the manager that ruins it.

[kirsty]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

I have looked at constructive dismissal, but I'm worried I wont be able to prove it well as they company are very good at twisting things. I'm hoping they might decide to bin me off then it would be easier. I think they think because I'm now receiving no money as only getting ssp, that I'll be bullied into going back on this demoted role with less pay because I'll be getting desperate for money! In fairness, knowing now that there is no fabrication department I know damn well I wouldn't be doing the demoted role, I'd be doing my role plus more due to lack of staff on less money.

[Celestine]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

But the pay demotion is in writing yes? Other staff have left for similar reasons.....you need to contact them and join forces.

I think you can demonstrate ample evidence for constructive dismissal. The fact that you have been with the company twelve years will also be hugely favourable.

[teaboy2]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

I agree with celestine, constructive dismissal is the best way to go. There is a clear breach of working time regulations e.g. less than 11 hours rest between daily hours and less than the required weekly rest period required under the working time regulations, but on top of that you have a breach of duty of care by the employer, there report proves that. Breach of duty of care is a breach of employment contract.

Ohh and all the above is on top of the harassment and bullying.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

Hi

am not entitled to company sick pay therefore now on SSP.

May i ask, if you have been with the company 12 years and are working all the hours god sends, why are you not entitled to company sick pay?

If you are in a position known as safety critical, i.e someone could be injured or killed by a mistake, you are required to have a 12 hour rest period between shifts. Personally I would be contacting the HSE about the hours you are being forced to work.

[teaboy2]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

I second what puffrose said, the HSE should be informed as clearly working such long hours without the legally required rest periods would also be a breach of health and safety regulations.

Nice one Puffrose!!

[kirsty]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

Advice on Constructive Dismissal. I have a meeting tomorrow night and company still won't recognise that the way my manager treats me is the problem. They have put in writing again that I am to be given a different role ie Demotion (but obviously not worded that way) and I am to attend a meeting tomorrow night to discuss. Basically only way back to work is if I agree to this role demotion. I really don't want to go back - I'm worried about constructive dismissal as everywhere advises don't do it , only as a last resort. Tried ringing ACAS and they were pretty hopeless, told me to go to CAB.

In all the written material they have sent me they will not recognise what I am saying or discuss my options to return to work. Now they are siting that because I'm off sick that I have delayed project work amounting to Euro 20m and I must return to work sooner rather than later! Even though in their report they said my job was covered which is why I was being given another role, therefore if my role covered why a delay??

I feel completely lost - I know they are going to get away with bad treatment again and to be honest don't think there is much I can do about it.

Any help would be appreciated - back in tomorrow night for a meeting on returning to work. I'm still off sick with stress at work but can't go on like this, I've worked for 25 years and never been off sick - so I am going to say I'm fit for work Wednesday, just don't want it to be at that company.

[bluebottle]

Re: Off Work with Stress advice needed

I am very concerned about the long hours mentality at an engineering firm. I have relatives who work in automotive, marine and refrigeration engineering and they consider working excessive hours without proper rest periods to be dangerous. One relative, who works in marine engineering on certain types of marine craft, informs me that a mistake in their field would have catastrophic consequences. Have you spoken to the HSE's Factories Inspectorate about your employer's behaviour and bullying? Health & Safety Inspectors are aware of the issues involved in bullying and have the power to serve an Improvement Notice, lasting for a MINIMUM of 12 months, on an employer who is not taking such behaviour seriously. HSE can take action against an employer for Exposing An Employee to Unnecessary Stress. They view it as a Failure to Ensure A Safe Working Environment (Section 2, Health & Safety at Work Act 1974). You say you are going back to work. Has your employer organised an Occupational Health Assessment as part of your return to work? If not, this may not only place them in breach of Health & Safety at Work legislation, it could also invalidate their Employer's Liability Insurance. It is a criminal offence for an employer to not have a valid Certificate of Employer's Liability Insurance in force.