• Welcome to the LegalBeagles Consumer and Legal Forum.
    Please Register to get the most out of the forum. Registration is free and only needs a username and email address.
    REGISTER
    Please do not post your full name, reference numbers or any identifiable details on the forum.
  • If you need direct help with your employment issue you can contact us at admin@legalbeaglesgroup.com for further assistance. This will give you access to “off-forum” support on a one-to- one basis from an experienced employment law expert for which we would welcome that you make a donation to help towards their time spent assisting on your matter. You can do this by clicking on the donate button in the box below.

Need advice - disciplinary

Collapse
Loading...
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Need advice - disciplinary

    My husband works for a small sales company selling a software product. When he started they provided spreadsheets full of data, ie companies to telephone. The product has a limited shelf life as there are only so many companies to call in that industry.

    My husband and the sales team have asked over the last few months for more data as they are running out but they haven't been given any any more. As a result of this and the recession added in they are not hitting target any more.

    Recently new management has come on board who have made it clear that they think the current sales team are being paid too much. On top of this, they have found their jobs advertised online this month for between £5k - £10 under their current salaries.

    My husband emailed the Director at this point to ask if their jobs were at risk and why were their jobs being advertised and he said that they weren't looking to replace them as that would be unethical.

    However, the whole sales team has now been given official warnings but rather than on a monthly basis in line with their targets they're being judged on a 2 weekly basis. This means that they are looking at being out of a job by the end of December/start of Jan.

    As they are unlikely to hit target in December (last year targets there were apparently reduced by 70% in December as sales are near impossible at this time of year, but they of course won't do that this year) it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that they'll be out soon and new staff on lower salaries will be recruited. This timeframe does not give them genuine time to try to improve sales and I wonder can they impose 2 weekly targets when they are contracted on a monthly target basis?

    Is this grounds for unfair dismissal given that he won't have hit a year's employment with them until February 2012?

    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: Need advice - disciplinary

    Hi!

    Have a read of this thread - http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=31818 - which gives some kind of idea how the situation should be dealt with by a reasonable employer.
    Please give us a shout on this thread if you have any queries.

    nb - Don't be put off by the mention of 'constructive dismissal' - the info is still relevant to your post
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb


    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.


    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Need advice - disciplinary

      You must have at least 1 year's continuous employment with your employer to qualify. Holiday, maternity leave or sick leave do not break the continuity of employment.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Need advice - disciplinary

        Hi - thanks for that. That's the problem though, he's been there less than a year so far so he wouldn't be able to claim constructive dismissal.

        He actually hasn't been put on official warning yet - the meeting is on Wednesday (been told he can take someone with him) and I just wanted him to go to the meeting fully informed.

        Is there any information that would help him?

        His Director said that they are going by a "performance managment process" but can they legally judge him on 2 weekly targets - can you push someone out so quickly, don't they have a duty to give people fair time to improve?

        The interesting thing is that the whole sales team (6 people) are being disciplined on Wednesday, rather than one person, as they're all working their socks off but not getting anywhere.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Need advice - disciplinary

          What help and support has been given to the work force to help them with their targets?

          If they have been given formal warnings then did they go through the disciplinary process as set out in their contract of employment?

          Is there a union in the workforce?
          "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
          (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Need advice - disciplinary

            They've not been given any help with targets. They raised the issue of the lack of leads months ago but nothing changed there.

            We will dig out his contract this evening and see what it says there. They gave them warning of this around 3 weeks ago I believe (in accordance with the fast tracked 2 week performance monitoring).

            They don't have a Union and it's a small company.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Need advice - disciplinary

              From post #22 on that other thread

              ACAS info can be accessed from this link.

              http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2927

              But be wary of 'Some Other Substantial Reason' (SOSR)

              http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3329


              Read more at: Constructive Dismissal ? - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

              Also, from a 'tactical' viewpoint, if it were me I would be considering invoking a complaint via the firm's grievance procedure.*
              They have a duty to provide you with details of this, & also details on the 'performance'
              plan.

              *(I have seen mentioned elsewhere that the grievance procedure, appeals, etc. are taken into consideration by Employment Tribunals when calculating the length of employment, though this would have to be verified)
              CAVEAT LECTOR

              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
              Cohen, Herb


              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
              gets his brain a-going.
              Phelps, C. C.


              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
              The last words of John Sedgwick

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=31418

                See teaboy2's response post #19
                CAVEAT LECTOR

                This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                Cohen, Herb


                There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                gets his brain a-going.
                Phelps, C. C.


                "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                The last words of John Sedgwick

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                  I think it's all become clear today which has made me panic all the more:

                  Facts are that:
                  • they plan on sacking the whole sales team and replacing them in January
                  • there's nothing my husband can do about it as he's been there less than a year
                  • not only will he be sacked for lack of ability (when he's a good salesman) they will presumably give him a bad reference now for being crap so his next career move is stuffed?
                  He has a 2nd job interview for a good job on 14th Dec but if he was lucky enough to get it is his current employer going to write a reference saying he's on formal disciplinary cos he'll never get it then!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                    Originally posted by rjsmith View Post
                    I think it's all become clear today which has made me panic all the more:

                    Facts are that:
                    • they plan on sacking the whole sales team and replacing them in January
                    • there's nothing my husband can do about it as he's been there less than a year
                    • not only will he be sacked for lack of ability (when he's a good salesman) they will presumably give him a bad reference now for being crap so his next career move is stuffed?
                    He has a 2nd job interview for a good job on 14th Dec but if he was lucky enough to get it is his current employer going to write a reference saying he's on formal disciplinary cos he'll never get it then!
                    Please read this about references there are rules that must be followed too

                    References FAQ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                      Thanks for any info sent all, all helps me!!

                      That link says that employers can "provide a detailed account, including references to any negative issues"

                      So yes, even worse!
                      Last edited by rjsmith; 28th November 2011, 13:30:PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                        If it were me, I wouldn't worry too much about bad references - employers know that the person who is the subject of the reference can demand access to it, & the supplier of a bad reference, if it is untrue, can be sued.

                        & this 'problem' is way down the line (& low in the list of current priorities, though it would be good to nip it in the bud!!)

                        I would wait to see what transpires on Wednesday, & don't forget to bring a companion to witness the event - see if you can get a copy of the employer's notes as well.

                        (Btw, it should not be disciplinary at this stage, although a performance assessment (as opposed to a review), is a precursor to possible disciplinary action.)
                        CAVEAT LECTOR

                        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                        Cohen, Herb


                        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                        gets his brain a-going.
                        Phelps, C. C.


                        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                        The last words of John Sedgwick

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Need advice - disciplinary

                          This has to be your judgment, but it may be worth raising the issue of the reference at interview and explain what is happening at his existing company.

                          Quite along time ago (late 80's) I was unable to use my current employer as a reference as I was fighting him for bullying others in the workplace and onone else would stand up to him. Meanwhile he'd actually said to me, "You're brilliant at your job, but I'll give you a dreadful reference and you'll never get another one. You can't prove I just said that!" or words along those lines.

                          I used him, but used another reference and explained the situation to my prospective employers who were quite happy to accept a third professional reference.

                          Moral - never lose hope. It's so easy to look on the downside of everything, and believe me, I know that more than most. Equally life goes on and there are ways round things like the reference issue.

                          Comment

                          View our Terms and Conditions

                          LegalBeagles Group uses cookies to enhance your browsing experience and to create a secure and effective website. By using this website, you are consenting to such use.To find out more and learn how to manage cookies please read our Cookie and Privacy Policy.

                          If you would like to opt in, or out, of receiving news and marketing from LegalBeagles Group Ltd you can amend your settings at any time here.


                          If you would like to cancel your registration please Contact Us. We will delete your user details on request, however, any previously posted user content will remain on the site with your username removed and 'Guest' inserted.

                          Announcement

                          Collapse

                          Welcome to LegalBeagles


                          Donate with PayPal button

                          LegalBeagles is a free forum, founded in May 2007, providing legal guidance and support to consumers and SME's across a range of legal areas.

                          See more
                          See less

                          Court Claim ?

                          Guides and Letters
                          Loading...



                          Search and Compare fixed fee legal services and find a solicitor near you.

                          Find a Law Firm


                          Working...
                          X