Contract Query

[enaid]

I started work in manged Public House on 21st July 2008, I was contracted for 12/15 hours.
'Your anticipated hours will be 12 to be worked on a rota basis agreed in advance with your Manager. The company or Manager has the right by giving you at least 24 hours notice to change the hours or days which you normally work. This may include reducing or increasing the hours according to the needs of the business. Regular shift patterns cannot be guaranteed.'

This is the part of my contract that is preventing me from taking any further action against the company and I am now being offered no hours at all.

It all started 4 weeks ago when a new Manager was employed, we had a staff meeting and she made it quite clear who was in charge and that changes were to be made. Firstly she sacked 3 girls that had been there less than 12 months, she did this over the phone and with no notice at all, they were just told not to come back as your not needed and there are no hours for you. Later that week 3 females were employed one a relative of the manager the other 2 being her sons GF and her friend or so I have been told.
Later that week the what was the Assistant Manager previous to the Manager coming was given the least hours of all the staff a total of 9 hours over 3 days. I don't know what went on betwean the brewery and this girl but in the end she was transferred.
Then next a chef was sacked he had not been there long once again i beleive with no notice.
Another girl handed in her notice last week, she got a disciplinary for something she didn't do and it could have been proven by playing back the CCTV, but the Manger refused to do this.
We were told at the staff meeting that we would be doing a one to one and any issues would be brought up then. It was becoming quite clear there would be no staff left to have this one to one as the next week she sacked another girl who had not been there long, once again told she wasn't needed and no hours for her. Her mum still works there, but has only been offered 5 hours this week washing up, her contract is identical to mine..
I did inform the new Mangaer that I was in receipt of Carers Allowance and that my hours and earnings are therefore restricted, at the time she said this was not a problem, this she has since denied knowing anything about.
I have worked my hours over the last 2 years form Mon - Thurs I have worked on Fridays too and this has not been a problem with prior notce, as we used to get our rotas at least a week before.
I rang in on the as we were told to and I was given 12-5 on Friday and that was all she could offer me.
I sent in a greivance letter about this and had a meeting with HR and the Mnagaer, the outcome basically that I could only work Mon- Thurs (as I had more or less for the last 2 years) and being told there may not be any hours on these days, I agreed to wait till there were hours on these days simply because i did not want to resign before seeking proper advice.
I have rung up on the following 2 Sindays and been told there are no hours for me.
At least 2 more staff have been taken on and a couple are being given 30 hours plus a week. There has been no change to business hours only the Manager, I just would like to ask does anyone think that I have a case at all against the brewery or must I just try for redundancy if the rules are followed.
I have rung a solicitor who to be quite honest didn't seem interested, maybe because on a no win no fee he would hardly get enough from this to pay postage on any letters.
I have also been to CAB who say the only way for me to go is Discrimination against a carer.
I am really upset and annoyed about this, as is my frined who is still working there by the skin of her teeth because she has no option. So any input would be gratefully received.
Thanks for reading Enaid xx

[Sapphire]

Re: Contract Query

Blimey running a pub has changed loads since my days as a licensee, we used to make up a rota and it ran week after week.
The only times shifts were changed were when a staff member wanted time off (I would always ask them to arrange their own cover, ie swap shifts with someone else) or if it were an emergency ie sickness cover or the busy time of year ie Christmas and then I'd ring round and offer the hours to whoever wanted to do them.
Personally Di I think that the company has covered everything with this statement in the contract
'Your anticipated hours will be 12 to be worked on a rota basis agreed in advance with your Manager. The company or Manager has the right by giving you at least 24 hours notice to change the hours or days which you normally work. This may include reducing or increasing the hours according to the needs of the business. Regular shift patterns cannot be guaranteed.'


Quick question though, when you went for the initial interview a couple of years ago, did you make it clear that you were a carer and could only work a certain amount of hours and earn a certain amount of money, and did you state that you would not be able to work weekends ?

I'm wondering if a note was made on your 'file'.

Another question: is this pub busiest during the week or weekends ?

[leclerc]

Re: Contract Query

Enaid, do you have free legal advice on your home insurance? Perhaps give them a buzz for an interpretation of what they think could be a case.

Or perhaps ACAS for some advice in relation to the contract. It does sound like you have what is called a zero hours contract

[enaid]

Re: Contract Query

Blimey running a pub has changed loads since my days as a licensee, we used to make up a rota and it ran week after week.
The only times shifts were changed were when a staff member wanted time off (I would always ask them to arrange their own cover, ie swap shifts with someone else) or if it were an emergency ie sickness cover or the busy time of year ie Christmas and then I'd ring round and offer the hours to whoever wanted to do them.
Personally Di I think that the company has covered everything with this statement in the contract
'Your anticipated hours will be 12 to be worked on a rota basis agreed in advance with your Manager. The company or Manager has the right by giving you at least 24 hours notice to change the hours or days which you normally work. This may include reducing or increasing the hours according to the needs of the business. Regular shift patterns cannot be guaranteed.'


Quick question though, when you went for the initial interview a couple of years ago, did you make it clear that you were a carer and could only work a certain amount of hours and earn a certain amount of money, and did you state that you would not be able to work weekends ?

I'm wondering if a note was made on your 'file'.
Yes I did tell the first Manager at my interview about being a carer, I doubt very much they hold files tbh. I never stated I could not work weekends it was just the norm that I worked through the week as I did so few hours.
Another question: is this pub busiest during the week or weekends ?

The pub should be busier at weekendfs as most are, the fact is though someone else is working the shifts I would normally do and they have only just started. The shifts have not gone anywhere.

Enaid, do you have free legal advice on your home insurance? Perhaps give them a buzz for an interpretation of what they think could be a case.
No I don't

Or perhaps ACAS for some advice in relation to the contract. It does sound like you have what is called a zero hours contract

I was contracted for 12/15 hours.
Been on to ACAS and they said about Constructive Dismissal but when I went to CAB he said contract was more or less water tight. Not worth the paper it's written on as far as the employee is concerned.

[Sapphire]

Re: Contract Query

The pub should be busier at weekends as most are, the fact is though someone else is working the shifts I would normally do and they have only just started. The shifts have not gone anywhere.
A lot of pubs down here are busier weekdays, lunchtime until early evening because of the office staff, that's why I asked and I remember we used to work out our rota's around the 'core hours'.
Mind you the fact that she has basically 'replaced' you, is the key to your complaint, but its proving the fact that will be hard, even though your keeping notes.

I was contracted for 12/15 hours.
Been on to ACAS and they said about Constructive Dismissal but when I went to CAB he said contract was more or less water tight. Not worth the paper it's written on as far as the employee is concerned.

I've had a word with the accountant who deals with all the contracts for our franchised offices and as he said these big companies usually have everything water tight, I would have spoken to him earlier hun but he's been on holiday.
I know you're really p'eed off with it all but personally (and I'm speaking as a friend here) I would keep phoning for the hours weekly and wait for them to tell you that your job is gone rather than resign, hopefully that way you'll get holiday pay etc if any is owed to you and remember the longer it goes on the more the holiday pay will build up, as I'm sure it builds as long as you are 'employed' rather than actually physically doing the hours, if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will pop along and correct me (they usually do lol).
Anyways look at it another way the longer you hang on and keep phoning the more you are pishing her off and in my book thats worth a lot.

[shamen]

Re: Contract Query

The problem with holiday pay is the way its calculated

If your pay varies from week to week, your holiday pay should be your average weekly wage over the previous 12 weeks.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employme...ff/DG_10034711

So basically if they are giving you zero hours per week, the holiday pay starts to decrease, until you have had 12 weeks with no hours then even if you have holiday entitlement, it would appear that they can pay you nothing for it. So maybe its best to take 'holiday' sooner?

[enaid]

Re: Contract Query

You accrue holiday pay off the hours you work so won't be accruing any lol
If I go over 4 consecutive weeks with no work I can ask for my redundancy, or if I have 6 weeks out of 13 weeks the same also applies and that I will do.
I wouldn't be half as bothered over this as I have accepted a cut in my hours before going from 12-15 to 9 or 10 this was done across the board and fairly with all staff members.This new manager has got rid of most of the staff that were there before she came by hook or by crook and has employed as many again to do our jobs, this is why I am so bitter and would really like to be able to do something about it.

[shamen]

Re: Contract Query

sounds like shes just got her mates in to do the work and pushed everyone else out. Its pretty common across lots of companies in my experience. I agree though there must be something you can do, but if you contract doesn't specify guaranteed minimum hours, then they could argue its a zero hour contract. Labour pledged to get rid of those types of contracts when they were elected in the 90's then conveniently forgot about that one.

On a side note, they can only make you accrue holiday pay in your first 12 months. After working for 12 months, then they cant make you accrue your entitlement. So if you have been there over a year, then i dont see how they can base it from your hours. Also i was apparently wrong about the 12 week thing - if one week has zero paid days, then the last week with paid days should be used to calculate amount of pay

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/l/j/AL03_1.pdf

[enaid]

Re: Contract Query

Okidoki been on to ACAS again and they are lovely, don't ever be scared of asking there advice. I have been told to write a last grievence letter stating I could no longer work there due to the way I have been treated and go for Constructive Dismissal, not easy as he said, but have nothing to lose.


Dear RH Manager,
I have done as was agreed at my grievence meeting and rang the Manager for my shifts on a Sunday as instructed. I have been told now on the last 2 Sundays that there are no hours for me, this being betwean Monday and Thursday of the same week.
I have accepted that the pub has not been trading as it should and only last year I agreed verbally to accept a cut in my contracted hours to betwean 9 and 10 hours per week, it was not only my hours that were cut but all the staff and it was done fairly betwean us all. This was hopefully to prevent staff from losing their jobs and indeed no job losses came about.
In the last 4 weeks 6 staff members have been sacked and 1 transferred, 1 staff member having her hours cut drastically and myself with no hours at all.
I asked at the meeting as to why so many staff had been sacked and you said it was not as many as I had thought and the extra staff were being taken on for more flexibility, your words.

"I explained that the xxxxxxxx had not been performing as originally expected and that it could not support the number of hours being worked. I explained to you the benefits of having a higher number of staff working shorter shifts, giving greater flexibility and you seemed to accept this."



It was also said that my shifts were in the quiet times of the business and the manager herself was covering most of these hours. This is most certainly not the case and the rotas will prove this, as for being a higher number of staff this is not the case either as the original staff have been reduced by 6 and hours cut for 2 more while another 5 have been employed and at least 1 doing some 30 hours a week.
It seems to me that this is a case of out with the old and in with the new, probably with the expectation that business will soon be booming from the manager and the indeed the brewery.

I also have to state I did tell the Manager I was a carer and as such had limits on my hours as I am only allowed to earn a certain amout or my Carers Allowance would be stopped. As she stated at the staff meeting that we would be having a one to one interview with her to discuss any issues I thought that would be as good a time as any to inform her fully of my responsibilities. She did indeed think the only reason I could not work weekends was because we have a caravan and that we go away at weekends, something she had great pleasure in making sure you got to know about at the greivence meeting. The fact is we have only had the caravan for 3 months and as I have been working at the xxxxxxxxxxxx for just over 2 years and not worked weekends in all that time, the caravan is not the reason, it is my role as a carer as I have a daughter aged 35 with Severe Learning Difficulties. I have also recently lost my Mother and have had to help my father a lot more as he has motability problems and Dimentia.
I therefore consider as someone else has been employed to cover the only hours I can manage and the manager obviously not interested in the reason why, I must resign. If you would consider making me redundant and giving me my full rights on this matter all well and good, if not then i have no option but to go to a Tribunal for Constructive Dismissal.

[WendyB]

Re: Contract Query

Dear RH Manager,
Following my grievence meeting on xxx date, I have done as agreed and telephoned the Manager ( Mrs Evil One) on Sunday evenings to see if there were any hours allocated to meon the rota for the coming week. I have done this for the last two Sundays. On both occasions, I was told that there are no hours for me, this being betwean Monday and Thursday of the same week.
I accept that the pub has not been trading as it should and only last year I agreed verbally to accept a cut in my contracted hours to between 9 and 10 hours per week; it was not only my hours that were cut but all the staff, this was done fairly between all staff. This was hopefully to prevent staff from losing their jobs and indeed no job losses came about.
In the last 4 weeks 6 staff members have been sacked and 1 transferred, 1 staff member having her hours cut drastically and myself with no hours at all.
I asked at the meeting as to why so many staff had been sacked was told it was not as many as I had thought and the extra staff were being taken on for more flexibility. I quote belowfrom your letter of xxx date.

"I explained that the xxxxxxxxxxxx had not been performing as originally expected and that it could not support the number of hours being worked. I explained to you the benefits of having a higher number of staff working shorter shifts, giving greater flexibility and you seemed to accept this."



It was also said that my shifts were in the quiet times of the business and the manager herself was covering most of these hours. This is most certainly not the case, which can clearly be proved from the recent rotas. As for there being a higher number of staff this is not the case either as the original staff have been reduced by 6 and hours cut for 2 more while another 5 have been employed, with at least 1 doing some 30 hours a week.
It seems to me that this is a case of out with the old and in with the new, probably with the expectation that business will soon be booming from the manager and the indeed the brewery.

I also have to state I did tell the Manager I was a carer and as such had limits on my hours as I am only allowed to earn a certain amount or my Carers Allowance would cease. As she stated at the staff meeting that we would be having a one to one interview with her to discuss any issues I thought that would be as good a time as any to inform her fully of my responsibilities. She , mistakenly, think that the only reason I could not work weekends was because we have a caravan and that we go away at weekends, something I feel she had great pleasure in informing you of at the grievance meeting. The fact is that we have only had the caravan for 3 months and as I have been working at thexxxxxxxxxx for just over 2 years and not worked weekends in all that time, the caravan is not the reason, it is my role as a carer as I have a daughter aged 35 with Severe Learning Difficulties. Indeed, I have on previous occasions also worked Friday evenings, with prior notice. I have also recently lost my Mother and have had to help my father a lot more as he has mobility problems and Dementia.

I therefore consider as someone else has been employed to cover the only hours I can work, and the manager is obviously not interested in the reasons why I cannot make such drastic changes, I must resign.
If you would consider making me redundant and giving me my full rights in this matter, then that would be a satisfactory onclusion. However, if this cannot be accomplished then I will have no option but to go to a Tribunal for Constructive Dismissal.

I'm not sure about the end bit, think it sounds a bit blackmalish and could be better put, but my head is not in gear atm lol. Someone will probably ome up with a better phrasing than mine

Wends xxx

[Tools]

Re: Contract Query

Nelly about this sentence you quoted

"I explained that thexxxx had not been performing as originally expected and that it could not support the number of hours being worked. I explained to you the benefits of having a higher number of staff working shorter shifts, giving greater flexibility and you seemed to accept this."

Where is this from please, have you had any further communication from them in writing or was this something you noted from the meeting?

If there has been written/email conversations could you please forward them to me.

[enaid]

Re: Contract Query

E mail with attachment from greivence meeting sent. x

[Amy]

Re: Contract Query

Have you sent this letter?

[enaid]

Re: Contract Query

Have you sent this letter?

No have i eck lol needs a bit of touchin up to say the least lol
Tools has the geivance letter to look through as well first.

[Chalkitup]

Re: Contract Query

enaid wrote ..... Okidoki been on to ACAS again and they are lovely, don't ever be scared of asking there advice.

Too true ...... they are excellent with their advice re this sort of case.

I have advised two people in the last three years to phone ACAS regarding their problems with Public Houses and their hours being taken away etc ....

The first was told by CAB ......... give in gracefully .... no chance of winning anything (my friend was the manager until one day her hours were taken and her wage reduced!!!) After the CAB visit I said they are incorrect and advised her to speak with ACAS ........ Brilliant help they gave ...... Fourteen months later she was awarded over £10,000 after a court case!!

The second friend told the Public House they owed her £150 holiday pay ........ no way they replied .......... she asked CAB advice and was told she was not due any holiday pay !!!!! ........ I advised her to speak to ACAS as the Pub would not pay her anything ....... they looked into it and blow me down .... a month ago she received a cheque from the Public House for £535!!! He He ...... she was so pleased ......... the Pub tenant was not so pleased!!!

Good Luck enaid.