Looking for advice please

[Bomber99]

My son-in-law started work for a recovery firm mainly collecting scrap cars but on occasions picking up cars impounded by the police and repossessions.

So when he met the director he was informed he would be working for xxxxx company.

so company ( let’s say) A employed him would send him out to collect scrap cars under company A name but when picking cars up for the police or repossessions was told to use company B’s name.

The director is a director for both of these companies. A & B

my sil started working for company A in April 2023.
He has been asking the director for his work contract but as yet the director has not supplied it, although the director keeps saying it is all in hand and will have it sorted within the next week.
But as you’ve guessed next week still hasn’t come.

when he started working for company A the wages were around £13.50 per hour and was told that would be about £10 per hour after tax and insurance.

So each month he worked he had to inform them the hours he had done and sure enough for every hour he worked £10 per hour was paid into his account.

Each month the wages were supposed to be paid in on or by the 07th but the last two payments have been delayed causing financial difficulties regarding household bills.

As of today this months wages have not been paid with the excuses the director is trying to sort this situation out.

He has also asked for payslips which have not been provide since he began work for company A

My son- in-law came to me three days ago with all this information and it certainly set red flags flying.

So I asked him who pays his wages into his account. His reply was the directors wife has on 5 occasions using her personal account and company B on the last 2 occasions.
No payments from company A

So now we have great concerns that the director is not paying the tax and insurance on my son-in-laws earnings which has the potential of leaving him with a big tax bill although the director has said in text messages he is paying the tax and insurance on the wages.
would that count as evidence if hmrs started an investigation?

After some digging and looking on companies house company A was dissolved in 2022 and reported in the gazette.

where does this leave my son-in-law legally and is the director breaking any laws

Today the director sent my son-in-law a payment of £200 over £100 for fuel for the companies lorry and £100 for him to get some food for his children after my son-in-law contacted him yesterday saying the children had no food.

thank you all for reading this

[Retromau5]

Hello, a quick way to find out if your son-in-law is on the books with his employer would be to use the HMRC app. When you log in it gives you up to date employment information with how much tax and national insurance your employer has paid. No one will know that you're doing a bit of research by checking this way. If this doesn't show anything up I'd be contacting the HMRC directly. I'd also recommend he looks for another job, because something doesn't sound right with this one.

[Bomber99]

Hello Retromaus
thank you for your response,

i agree with what you are saying regards looking for a new job.
It has come to light that the son-in-law is not the only driver who is having the exact same problems with this company.
There are 5 in total all not getting payslips or having a contract to sign.
There is real concerns this director is breaking the law somehow and the drivers will get implemented in it regarding the tax and insurance situation.
3 of the drivers along with my son-in-law have gone to seek answers from the director today.

[ULA]

Good advice from Retromau5 in how your son-in-law can check on what if anything has been paid by the employer for tax and NI.

In respect of employment law I can advise:

Firstly your son-in-law has a right to have received a document stating the main conditions of employment when he started work. This is known as a ‘written statement of employment particulars’. It is not an employment contract and is made up of:

1. The main document (known as a ‘principal statement’)
2. A wider written statement

His employer should have provided the principal statement on the first day of employment and the wider written statement within 2 months of the start of employment. Both documents have specific details which each should contain to be compliant.

Secondly by law an employer is required to provide employees and workers an itemised payslip each time an individual is paid. Those details should include, gross pay, net pay and itemised deductions including tax and NI and how wages will be paid.

Depending on how far he wants to go with this, it may be worth him putting in writing/email (so he has the evidence) that he has these rights and that all the necessary documents including wage slips since he joined need to be provided to him in xxx days.

[Bomber99]

Hi ULA
thank you for your advice and it has been taken on board.

The son-in-law took the advice to look on HMRC and it is showing he has NOT been employed since April 2023

He had a meeting with the director today and a few harsh words were spoken by both parties.

The director more or less sacked him but after more words sort of relented.

Just before he relented my son-in-law shown him the HMRC profile showing he was not employed or no tax and national insurance had been paid.
His reply was, he would contact his accountant to get this sorted out straightaway.

on the point of payslips he said this would also be sorted asap.

The reason he said there was no contract was because the son-in-law is on a zero hours contract.

The zero hours contract was never mentioned in the job interview.

Thank you for all your help

[ULA]

Regardless of whether he is now deemed to be on a zero hours contract he should still benefit from the employment rights associated with the employment status of either being a "worker" or an "employee". He should still have a contract that is clear and transparent so the can understand those rights

[Retromau5]

If he's not an employee is he covered by the business' insurance?

[Bomber99]

Hi Retromaus
Will ask son-in-law about this

So yesterday evening the director contacted the son-in-law and told him he needn’t go into work today as the truck my son-in-law uses needs work doing on it. He told him when the work was completed he would be back in contact with him.

As for the wages he is owed for last month the director told him that they would be in the son-in-laws account that evening but at 11.30 pm they had not arrived.
The wages should have gone in on the 07/01/2024 and on the 08 09 and 10th has been told they would be in on that day.
So looks like he will not be getting paid. Very frustrating when you have 4 children to feed.

The more I find out about the director and the companies he owns the more red flags keep popping up.

The son-in-law finds himself in a difficult situation whereby he is a hard worker, works all the hours they ask of him and does not want to just walk out of the job as he presumed that will affect his benefits if he has to sign on the dole.

By the way the director works for the courts on repossession's (not sure what his title is) but you’d think he would run his own business much better than he does

[Retromau5]

Universal credit (benefits) checks with HMRC every month to see what you earn, and then works out your entitlement from there. Unless he's still on the old tax credits system that relies on yearly reporting from the Claimant, I'm not sure how they could have missed he wasn't employed.

He really needs to find a new job, and I cannot stress that enough. As a driver he is responsible for everything he does. If a company director is willing to cut corners on employment, what else is he willing to cut corners on? Cutting corners increases risk, more risk means more uncontrollable dangers, you see where I'm going with this?

[Bomber99]

Thank you all for all your advice so far it really is appreciated in trying to sort out this difficult time for my son-in-law and his family.

It is still the case that the son-in-law has not been paid his wages for last months work. Are the company breaking any laws by not paying these wages?

When the son-in-law applied for this job it was through, indeed recruitments advertised with the hours of 8 - 10rs Monday to Friday. He completed a days trial and was offered the job over the phone with a start date of 06/04/2023.
Although the son-in-law has asked on many occasions for his contract it has never been provided and now the company are saying he is on zero hours contracts.
can the company do that when he accepted the job as advertised.?

On the wages side of things the son-in-law has gone through his bank account and noted since working for this company the majority of his monthly pay has come from the company’s wife’s personal account. When challenged about this on 09/01/2024 the director said that should not be happening and would look into it.

Also the last wages paid into his account came from another company the director owns.
The director explained this by saying both companies are merged (in a way not understood by son-in-law) so wages can be paid by either company.
Is this correct?

Another thing that has also come to light and very disturbing is the director of the company he works for puts son-in-laws name down on paperwork as though he works for companies who have the right to repossess vehicles This came to light last week when the son-in-law turned up at a compound to collect a vehicle that had been repossessed by another company.

He was to collect the car from the compound and take it elsewhere.

When he gave the security guard his details and who he worked for they would not release the car as the details were wrong.

After a quick phone call to his director and within 5mins some more paperwork was sent to him via messenger.

The paperwork came from his director with all the correct details of the company who had originally repossessed the car but with the added name of my son-in-law as though he was working for that company.
My son-in-law challenged this in a phone conversation but was told more or less collect the car or loss your job.
He obviously collected the car.
Is this practice this practice legal?

with regards the tax and national insurance situation the director told the son-in-law he would contact his accountant to get this matter sorted out.
My personal fear is they will concoct something up to make out my son-in-law is self employed has he has no contract to prove different.

We will be contacting HMRC today about tax and national insurance situation and hopefully they will look into it.

It is time son-in-law took all our advice and walk away from this company.

I am sorry for all the questions but we are trying to get our head around the legal side of things before making a decision on what reasons the son-in-law has for reporting this company to the right authorities.

[ULA]

I appreciate this must be a very trying time for your son-in-law and also yourself in assisting him. Your last post seems to have a number of questions so I am going to go through them in order and advise where I can.

1. Even if your son-in-law in on a zero hours contract then he should be paid the wages he is owed. If custom and practice has been monthly paid and should have gone in on 7 Jan then, unless it is paid there would be a potential claim for unlawful deduction of wages. I suggest that given the situation with this employer that your son-in-law starts to set everything out in writing / email. On that basis I suggest he emails the director today stating that is wages are still unpaid, that this is considered an unlawful deduction of wages and that the matter needs to be rectified immediately as they are now well overdue.
Also just in case you had not thought what has happened about holiday and holiday pay?

2. As previously set out even on a zero-hours contract the employer is required to provide employees/workers with a written statement on the day that they start. He should therefore been provided on on 6 April 2023 and this would have set out the basis on which he was being offered work i.e. zero hours or not. So I would suggest this is added to the email that your son-in-law sends.

3. It is highly unusual for a bona fide company to be paying wages from a personal bank account of a director's wife. Wages should be paid via the company bank account as the employing company set out on the Written Statement.

4. This goes back to the written statement issue which should set out who the employer is. On that basis it is that employer who should be paying your son-in-law.

5. From a legal perspective not my area of expertise with your son-in-law's name being put on documentation for another company. However my concern is that he is not an employee / worker of the company who originally repossessed the car and if that company has no affiliation / connection to the business employing your son-in-law's then it is wrong to hold him out to be an employee / worker of the company.

6. The tax situation is concerning but you are correctly trying to sort this out by contacting HMRC which is the correct authority if the company needs to be reported for failing to make tax and NI payments. I would also let HMRC know of the concern of the company back-tracking about self-employed status for tax and NI purposes. However, on that point there are very key criteria in determining the employment status of someone and from the brief information you ahve provided it would be very hard for them to say he is self-employed.

I do not say this often on the forum and I appreciate this is easier said than done but your son-in-law would be best finding a new job, getting all monies he is due paid and liaising with HMRC re the tax and NI situation.

[Bomber99]

Thank you ULA
I /we take on board all you have said and the great advice given.

We sent the director a message following all the advice you and others have given and can now tell you the wages for December were paid in in the last 10 mins, although not from the company he is/was employed with.
None the less delighted it has been paid and they can do a food shop

No payslip given.

Will update with response from HMRC when I have some information.

Again very much appreciate your time and consideration on these matters

[ULA]

So good to hear that your son-in-law has now been paid.

May be worth a follow up email from him to confirm salary has been paid however reminding them of their legal requirement to provide a payslip and that he requires copies of all previous payslips.

Just come back to this thread as and when you have updates or need further advice.

[Bomber99]

Hi all just a quick up date

son-in-law has now decided to walk away from this employer, but struggling to get a response from the employer regarding his p45and payslip’s.
Not sure legally what he can do to get them.

Also we would like to ask some question around how this company is run on the legal side of things and how it deals with data.
Should we ask the question here or somewhere else on the forum

[ULA]

I would get your son-in-law to email his now previous employer and request copies of all his payslips and his P45, say that if these are not forthcoming he will report the company to HMRC.

As you have this thread already running, suggest that you just continue to ask your other questions here.