Constructive dismissal I think.

[Medusaflying]

Hi all, I need some advice on understanding my complaint regarding discrimination if it is indeed discrimination.

I'm a housing advice worker and work with careleavers trying to find accommodation options. Previous to this job, I worked with vulnerable families and accommodation. I have a wealth of experience in housing. I started work with the company in 2016. I had started on a temporary basis to cover for someone else who did not return to their employment. The job was advertised. I went up against other candidates for the role and was successful. During the interview process, my manager disagreed with her new manager regarding my title. My manager said I had vast experience and should not be considered a trainee. On a side note, the others in my team with similar or the same experience were not subjected to the same process. The overall manager decided that until I complete an NVQ level 4, I will be classed as a trainee with trainee wage. I have a First Class Honours degree and BTEC Nat Dip in IT.

I embarked on a level 4 nvq reluctantly, but due to the external assessor not responding to any of my or managers emails, I only ever had 50% of my nvq assessed and marked (passed) although I submitted all my nvq have screenshots dates, times and correspondence to various people in the company requesting support and help, it was left to me to try and get this mess dealt with. One of the training employees in my company said she would assess my work if I paid her £600, and she left shortly after.

Fast forward 7 years and after constant complaining I received a notification from this January, based on my experience and certificates a change of payscale was awarded bringing it in line with my colleagues plus I now have the title CRO rather than trainee on my badge and on every document. My question is on the basis of my previous experience and current situation whereby my credentials were ignored. I'm I entitled to back pay from the beginning of my permanent contract. The payscale award is based on the information I evidence and certificates gave to them during my job interview.

I believe the new area manager at the time discriminated against me, she was an inexperienced manager and although my manager disagreed with her during the interview regarding me being a trainee or not, she felt pressured to go along with this erroneous decision. I've managed many aspects of the team during my manager's absences, and I also conduct training for the service, but up until January, I have received fewer wages than my colleagues.

Please can anyone advise, I went to my union, who said I had a strong case, but they haven't been much help since. I'm not sure what to do?

[echat11]

Hi Medusaflying

Welcome to LB

Could you kindly add paragraphs to your post, via edit icon.

It will help ULA help you.

[ULA]

I would be interested to know more about why type of claim the union seemed to think you have.

The title of your thread is "Constructive Dismissal I think" do you feel that you have claim for resigning and making a claim for the correct term being constructive unfair dismissal?

Can you also confirm what the NVQ level 4 was in?

[Medusaflying]

Hi ECHATT11, ULA, yes, of course, I will separate into paragraphs. Thanks

My union only ever alluded to constructive unfair dismissal. My union rep agreed with everything in my grievance letter. Although the union representative never requested any of my evidence, this I found odd. I was hoping they would be more proactive with some guidance.

I do not want constructive unfair dismissal, but I do want my pay backdated to the equivalent of my colleagues, obviously taking into account payscales. This is why I'm querying the suggestion of constructive unfair dismissal. I feel my union are not really supportive therefore I'm trying to seek guidance on the correct way I make a grievance against my employers.

I have received wages inline with a trainee for nearly 7 years. The NVQ 4 was in Advice and Guidance, not really pertinent to my role in housing. I work with young people and section 20, voluntarily coming into care. Two others completed the same training previously in 2015, the NVQ4 is not offered anymore. My company was taken over by another company, 2 years ago, a big charity, we have only ever worked for the LA and sub-contracted to the LA.

I feel I'm being treated differently to others in my team, I'm being excluded from certain situations also, but it's difficult to assess. I plan to bring it up in my appraisal. But really unsure? Thanks.

[ULA]

Constructive unfair dismissal is very hard to prove and the onus would be on you to prove your claim. It also means that you have to resign from your job, having exhausted all other ways to resolve the issue informally or formally via the grievance procedure, including appealing and then bring the claim . The other factor is that the issue has been going on for 7 years which would not assist any claim of this nature.

I would suggest that you may need to have a discussion with your manager initially about the possibility of any back-pay being earlier than Jan, however if you were notified this back in Jan, again my concern is why leave it nearly 5 months to query this, or have you done that but not set out in your post what action you have already taken to see if they will back- date further. If you have an expectation that they will back-date 7 years then that is highly unlikely.

[Medusaflying]

Hi, I have not sent anything to the company since speaking with my union rep. I have it all completed, my grievance, evidence, and secondary evidence.

Admittedly, I have struggled and delayed sending my grievance for various reasons, but I wanted to make sure I had the grievance wording and complaint exactly to reflect the issues and what it is I'm requesting.

I know I'm not going to be backdated 7 years, part of the delay was due to my manager advising I was on the same paygrade as everyone else, but in January I found this was not the case.

My partner suggested we sit down this weekend and check everything through and email the grievance.
I also didn't want my manager to get into trouble but feel very different now.

Something was said to me recently that made me realise my manager has been speaking with the company, advising them on my grievance/complaint. The company has now changed their job applications to reflect the exact same issues as I encountered with my NVQ delay, payscale, and the process.

I did speak with my manager about this issue multiple times. But nothing was done. My colleague advised me that my manager was afraid she would get into trouble for not sorting this when first brought up.

I am aware that some of the team know, my manager informs me of all their issues during supervision, so on that basis, I'm making the assumption that it's the same for me. Without sounding paranoid, I'm trying to be careful. Also, I am being treated differently to others in the team and walking on eggshells.

I would suppose for most people if they have a grievance in itself, it can be dealt with discussion and negotiation, but the politics and insideous harassment is what makes people paranoid and miserable.
Although I've been naive I will be sending my grievance to the company by next Monday. I will contact my union rep and hopefully he will respond. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks

[ULA]

I would suggest that if you do want to raise this then trying to ensure you have everything ready to send into the company next week would be the right thing to do. If you leave it much longer from when you found out the information in Jan, then you run the risk of the company questioning why this has taken so long to raise since the event.

If you need anymore support through this process then just come back to this thread.

[Medusaflying]

Hi, thank you. I will do that and update the response from the company. I can only be hopeful. Thanks

[theberenger]

I've a couple of brief observations:

The first of which is, do all of the other people on the pay grade you thought you should have been on - and doing the same job as you - already have this NVQ4 qualification, or an equivalent of it? If they do, or some other qualification in the area in which they're working, and you don't, despite the on-the-job experience, that may give them a valid reason for giving you the grade they did. With respect, your prior degree and NAT Dip are irrelevant if they don't give you qualifications applicable to this role.

My second point is in relation to your direct manager disagreeing with her superior and now being afraid of not sorting it out when it first came up. Again, with respect, unless it is a direct responsibility of your own manager to set pay grades, her opinion is irrelevant if her own superior's view is different, assuming her reasoning is valid, regardless of how aggrieved it makes you feel.

Thirdly, I assume you haven't actually paid the training employee who offered to assess your NVQ submissions for £600 before she left?

[Medusaflying]

Hi, just an update regarding my Grievance. I am now in the appeal process. My Grievance was not upheld on any point, but I was offered no evidence why this decision was reached, there was no explanation or evidence from my employers to state why they came to this decision.

I was repeatedly ignored by HR when I emailed my Grievance with all the evidences taken from 7 years. I had a variation to my contract in October 2022, and my paygrade changed to 1 level up with no backpay or reason given why I now have the variation, and no longer considered a Trainee after 7 years, but a CRO case responsible officer.

I advised my manager and HR, I would send my Grievance to the CEO, at this point HR responded within 2 minutes, my manager left the service the very next week. I have my local councillor who has taken on my case and also my union.

My temp manager wants to start a new appraisal from blank and eradicate my previous appraisal but has offered to score me high, linked to my paygrade, I've refuse this offer.

The person dealing with my appeal said she felt confused and needed to seek further advice from her superiors, 2 weeks ago. I'm not sure how long this takes, but from the point of HR acknowledging my Grievance, it's taken 12 weeks so far.

My councillor has advised he will contact the CEO of the company I work for and the DCS of the LA we are a partner organisation and bidding for the new contract.

My councillor has been pretty amazing, my union less so.

No I never paid the £600 to the worker who was setting up a new company. I'm somewhat hopeful but still have some trepidation, particularly with the new temp manager who appears to be trying to probe my mind and even suggested I might have a physical and/or mental diagnosis. Strange but true.

[ULA]

Thank you for the update. Hope the appeal process moves a bit more quickly than it appears your initial grievance did.

[Medusaflying]

Hi all, I'm writing this in the early hours, having trouble sleeping again. Further to my appeal, it feels like I'm just being given the runaround. Once again, I've requested evidence regarding the decision not to uphold my grievance, to be met with nothing. HR, have advised that I need to introduce new information, but surely they have to have valid reasons for not upholding my grievance.

Can a company make the decision without stating the evidence. It seems very arbitrary. I sent a further email requesting evidence of their decision. The appeal was emailed back to the person who first heard my grievance, so I'm confused at this point.

My supervision with my covering temporary manager and new manager felt like an inquisition. I've just returned from leave and had supervision the same day. Lots of things were being implied, I feel I'm being set up.

During supervision, my temp manager asked me questions about my grievance. I said I didn't feel comfortable with answering. Is this appropriate? Can they do this? They specifically asked if someone else is involved.

I also found out that a new starter to my team has not had to do any qualification and is a case responsible officer without having any background in housing at all. He has not completed any training, unlike myself.

I'm resending everything in one email, all the responses to HR and the appeal person, again. I'm considering copying in the CEO of the company. I know this move is probably foolish, and the fall-out will be negative.

I came to the realisation after returning from leave, this will never be resolved . My supervision convinced me of the impending harassment I'm going to be subjected to.

Whether paranoid or not, they are trying to pressure me enough to either make me leave or get rid of me.

Even with the union involved and local councillor , as much as they are sympathetic and feel I am being discriminated against, it makes no difference to the outcome. If a company refuses to take responsibility due to the incompetence of previous employees no longer with the company, unless you have money and can afford a good employment solicitor. You're completely alone.

[echat11]

Wait for ULA to respond.

In the past I've written / complained to MD's CEO's etc

Your employee handbook should allow you to upscale your complaint to director level.

I told the MD he should spend a week working with the employees.

[Benny8902]

Your appeal should form the grounds of legal points of law on why they have not followed a correct process if need be. The grievance appeal needs to counter them, not sure why solicitors don't do this.

Also pose questions to them per ACAS July 2022 endorsement.

Also when making points of law, be brief, concise make your point and move on.

[ULA]

So from what I can work out you have put in an appeal?

When did you do that?

Have you a date for your appeal hearing?