Appealing a dismissal

[MrSharples]

I was dismissed from my ex employer where I was a delivery driver, on the 20th December last year I was questioning my route, and complaining that I had twice as much weight than the other driver , my line manager appeared and asked me to resign on the spot if I was not happy, I refused to resign and was asked to leave. 3 days later I received a letter saying I had been dismissed from my post, for gross misconduct and subordination. I was given the chance to appeal the decision for my dismissal, and attend a meeting 3 weeks later. When I attended this meeting I was informed that I only had 15 minutes to speak, but was presented with more information on the day , of even more serious allegations that I had made threats , related to the night in question, I found myself trying to defend new allegations, which I was totally unaware of until the day of the meeting. Rather than this meeting which I thought would be for me to defend the original allegations, I found it quite difficult to answer to these new allegations presented. I was also told that I would have the results, and the outcome of this meeting within a few days, that was over 4 weeks ago, and I have not received anything, with regards to this meeting. As the case looks like it will go to a tribunal, I have to start preparing my witness statement , this is almost impossible to do without these new allegations, time is not on my side , do I contact my ex employer and request this important information, or wait until the tribunal, any advice would be appreciated

[ULA]

Firstly how long were you employed at the company.

Secondly your employment was terminated on 20 December when did you start the process of Early Conciliation via ACAS.

I am also a bit confused by your dates you were dismissed 20 December and had your appeal hearing 3 weeks later which would have been around 10 Jan so it is well over 4 weeks that you have not heard the outcome of the appeal. Can you confirm I am correct about the dates.

Have you chased your ex-employer for a response?

[MrSharples]

Many thanks for your reply, I had been working for the company for 2 and a half years, I got dismissed on 20th December 2022, after advice from both Citizens Advice, and ACAS , I wrote a letter to my ex employer about 2 / 3 weeks later, so yes your dates are correct, I was invited to attend a meeting on the 27th March , which I did attend, however rather than my employer give me the opportunity to defend the allegations, I found myself trying to answer many more questions, asked by him , and was also presented with new witness statements, of a much more serious nature, which took me completely by suprise, and difficult to defend, as I was not made aware of these new allegations until the day of the meeting. As of now nearly 4 weeks have passed, and I was told that I would be informed in writing of the outcome of the meeting, as yet I still have received nothing. What's difficult is I have to start preparing my witness statement for a tribunal hearing, but that's almost impossible to do if I have not received anything, with regards to this meeting. I am of the opinion that I should of been made aware of these new allegations before I attended this meeting , or at least been forwarded this new information soon after this meeting, my head is in bits , and I don't know whether it's a good idea to contact my employer, or leave it up to the tribunal, after all his lack of forwarding this information might go in my favour

[ULA]

I guess the Early Conciliation process with ACAS did not result in any settlement and you are now claiming for, I presume unfair dismissal, via the Employment Tribunal (ET) detailed in your ET1 form.

When is your tribunal hearing date?

[MrSharples]

Hi , many thanks for your reply, yes you are correct, early conciliation failed, my employer refused to speak to early conciliator, because we had had not exhausted efforts , " in house " by way of a meeting between me and the employer, basically we did not have the meeting for me to appeal his decision, however this meeting, as mentioned did take place just over 4 weeks ago, I've spoken to the conciliator from acas today , she has implied that a judge present at the tribunal will take into account the lack of response, and failure to disclose new information from my employer, which was only presented to me on the day of the meeting of my appeal. I have done lots of reading, and I'm almost certain that, whilst he has followed his own company procedures, he has failed to follow the guidelines set out by acas ,and withheld important information, which I should have been made aware of, many thanks for your help

[MrSharples]

Sorry my tribunal is set for 17th July

[MrSharples]

Just wondering if people who have provided witness statements against me from my ex employer have to attend the tribunal

[ULA]

MrSharples I see you have created a new thread, which is in fact a continuation of your initial thread. In order to ensure consistency of advise from those of our volunteer community providing you support, please can you keep all questions in respect of your tribunal claim on this one thread. Many thanks.

I am logging off now but I will respond to your posts #5 - #7 tomorrow.

[MrSharples]

Hi many thanks for your reply, I do apologise, and will try and keep my questions relating to my original post, together, many thanks for your help

[ULA]

Response to Post #5

When an employee is facing disciplinary action, including dismissal for gross misconduct, they should be invited to attend a meeting in writing, giving full details of the allegations and any documents that the company will use to support the allegations, you should be given a reasonable amount of time to prepare for the meeting at least 3 days is typical, and be told about your right to have a colleague or trade union rep supporting you at the meeting, if you require. Clearly this has not happened in your situation.

In addition, the time taken from dismissal to hearing anything on the appeal meeting is already at 4 months which means you have had no choice but to start your claim before the outcome is known.

Have you had the ET3 response and any Ground of Resistance (GoR) from the respondent (your ex-employer)?

Response to Post #6

Thank you for confirming tribunal date.

I know you are concerned about preparing your witness statement (WS), however this is generally the final part of the process before the hearing. Prior to this you need to have agreed with the respondent the bundle of documents that are going to be seen by the tribunal at the hearing. Although you can start preparing a WS you cannot really finalise it without an agreed bundle. At some stage you should be given orders from the Tribunal in respect of dates for agreeing the bundle and then the date, which will be after this, for exchanging witness statements.

Response to Post #7

If a witness statement is produced by an individual then they should be at the hearing, firstly to present their evidence as set out in the statement directly to the tribunal panel and secondly to allow you to cross exam them, particularly if you have concerns about the validity/truth of their statement.

[MrSharples]

Hi Ula ,many thanks for your reply and help , my ex employer has filled out et3 to say they want to go ahead with tribunal, for now anyway, I am waiting to see what they have said , however there is a backlog of claims, so as of yet I have not received their reasons from the Tribunal Office. Would I be right in saying though , that no matter what they have stated on the et3 form , that they have failed to follow procedures set out by acas, when I attended a meeting to appeal my dismissal. IE they have not responded to the outcome of this meeting by way of letter , ( it's now been 4 weeks ago and I have not received anything back) they also failed to disclose new information they had gathered until on the morning of my meeting to appeal my dismissal, as mentioned I cannot defend new allegations, if I am unaware of them,and I'm still unaware of them as we speak. I know that this information will have to be disclosed at sometime, but referring back to acas code of conduct ,I should have been given this information asap by my employer, apologies for the long winded post ,and once again I appreciate your help and advice, cheers david

[ULA]

Unfortunately there is a backlog at the Tribunals currently, at some point you will get a copy of the ET3 and the GoR if they have done this as a separate document.

Failure to follow procedure will be taken account of by the tribunal and they have the option to uplift any award given to reflect this fact. You will also make this point in any Schedule of Loss (SoL) that you prepare for the sums that you are claiming.

[MrSharples]

Hi Ula , there has been a little bit if a development since my last post , and I was wondering if you could give me a little more advice, on the et3 form there was certain things that the Respondent and the claimant must send eachother, by certain dates, the first date was for me to submit to my employer the following
What I wanted as compensation, and how I worked this out.
What i have done to find alternative employment, and if I have actually found alternative employment.
If I would consider my job back given the opportunity.
Anything else relevant to the claim.
All of the above I had to do by the 17th April.
I done all of the above and sent to my employer well in advance of the deadline, via email.
The next thing we both had to do was send eachother more information relevant to the claim by the 3rd May , which is today , I complied with this request via email last week, although I did not have much more information to send him , I reminded him that by the 3rd May I needed him to send me all the relevant information he had relevant to the claim , and that this date set out in the et3 form was the deadline for doing so.
I requested from him the following
Tape recording of the meeting we had back on the 27thMarch to allow me to appeal the decision to dismiss me.
Minutes which were took during this same meeting.
More witness statements he presented on the morning of this meeting, which included new allegations against me. Just for the record I was told during this meeting that I would at least be informed in writing of the outcome of this appeal hearing within a few days, I have heard nothing whatsoever, and 6 weeks or so have passed,and now the 3rd of May has passed, and still nothing. I have received a email from a Solicitor who is now representing my employer, firstly telling me that it's normal for the tribunal office to allow more time if needed for the Respondent to send me the information I requested before todays deadline , if being late with this information does not have an impact on the day of the actual tribunal, and if I would agree to allow them a extra week to pass on the information, which should have been passed on no later than today.
What i find very strange is that their basically telling me it Ok to do this , then asking me for my permission to do this , I do apologise for the long winded post, but I don't know what to agree to, and what not to agree to, my head is battered to be honest, many thanks for any advice you could pass on, I really appreciate it, David

[ULA]

This situation is not unusual, where one side asks the other for extending a deadline in respect of document exchange, if it still gives that party reasonable/adequate time in which is prepare for the hearing. In doing so the party asking for the extension needs to get agreement to any new date from the other party.

[MrSharples]

Hi Ula , many thanks for your reply and your help, would it be in my best interests to agree to give another week for this information, and what would be the outcome and consequences if I refused , on the basis that my employer has had more than enough time to comply.I just want to do the right thing at the end of the day, many thanks for your help, cheers