Legal fees

[Kazdoyle]

Hi,

I'm going through a very difficult time. I am nearing labour while simultaneously handing a sexual harassment/bullying claim and an unfair dismissal claim. Both relate to the same employer.

The moment I brought up the sexual harassment claim, chances of getting a job were withheld and I was made redundant. I filed the grievance for discrimination and unfair dismissal just before leaving in Dec 2021.

The grievance is still ongoing and they had initially used it as a tactic to delay me from filing an ET claim. I have union representation however they are useless and work hand in hand with the employer. I was glad to have interacted with ACAS who helped me tremendously and I managed to log a claim. Even CAB helped as well with the ET1.

I am ingoing counselling and therapy and recently went on to take anti depressant medication. I held off for so long because of the side effects it could have in my unborn baby. But I couldn't take anymore and it ended up taking the pills my midwife and gp where backing me to take for my mental health and wellbeing.

The union have provided negative assessments time after time on my claim and therefore their solicitor won't take on my claim because they believe I have less than 50% chance of winning.

I went privately to a barrister and solicitor and paid out of my last savings for a review. Both provided extremely good prospects of winning.

My claim was submitted to the ET in may. The ET3 was submitted early July however the respondent wanted an extension. This was granted and late July, the ET3 was submitted. Just early this week, I got confirmation of a preliminary hearing date for Jan and also an order for the respondent to provide a full response to my claim by end of Sept. The respondent has replied that they have responded on 25 July to the full claim.

Do you think a judge could have made a mistake and not seen the ET3 from late July by the respondent or was the judge not happy with the response?

Also the respondent has my grievance investigation still ongoing although my witnesses and myself provided our video recorded hearings/testimony in Jan/Feb this year.
The respondent is scared to provide an outcome because they know they failed me and also are backing the bullies.

I don't have home insurance to cover my legal fees but I do have an extremely strong case and 100% confident in winning my claim. Because some of the sexual jokes said to me were soul destroying to any female. And then the continued harassment because I told a senior who confronted the bullies.

It is a billion dollar company that I am up against and trying to take each day at a time. I want justice and the company to take responsibility for their actions.

Back to my questions:
Do you think a judge could have made a mistake and not seen the ET3 from late July by the respondent or was the judge not happy with their response?

The same bullies harassed two other employees as well last year. One had raised a grievance and for the second one, I raised it with a manager and asked that it be dealt with.
Can I bring up these two grievances in the ET to show there is a bullying culture?

My union has been on the fence and he didn't even bother to take up any of my concerns that I raised by email. I complained to the union and they provided another contact to use. I do have saved voicemails of this union manager asking if I wanted a job and he can get me one with the employer but indirectly asking me to leave the grievance behind. He refused to get me any legal help from the union with vague excuses. Even CAB were surprised that I went to them for help when I'm actively paying the union. Not sure how to take the union to task when I am fighting Goliath already.

Any advice will be appreciated.

[ULA]

Sorry to hear that you are not being well supported by your union and that you are having to seek legal advice elsewhere.

To be able to answer you I need to get you to provide me with a timeline of dates for:

1. Submission of your ET1
2. Submission of ET3
3. Date of correspondence from the Tribunal in respect of the date for the preliminary hearing (PHR) and the order or the respondent to provide a full response to my claim by end of Sept.
4. Are you likely to call the two other employees who were bullied as Witnesses for you?

[Kazdoyle]

Thank you for responding. Here are the dates as requested:

1. Submission of your ET1 - 23 May 2022
2. Submission of ET3 - Deadline was 11 July 2022 but respondent requested 14 days time and sent the ET3 on 25 July 2022

3. Date of correspondence from the Tribunal in respect of the date for the preliminary hearing (PHR) and the order or the respondent to provide a full response to my claim by end of Sept. - 20 Aug 2022

4. Are you likely to call the two other employees who were bullied as Witnesses for you?
I would like to call them however both are still working there and scared of retaliation. Hopefully the male witness will be out of the company as he got a job offer elsewhere and just waiting to sign it. He promised to testify at the ET. The lady however is a senior manager and works for as a third party and I haven't spoken with her yet. The respondent can't deny that I raised how my colleagues called her a (Fat Bitch) on a conference call. It is on email as well as all members in my team were given a tap on the back to speak with women respectfully. The irony being my manager who said this to my team was a bully to me and his colleague who called the female manager the derogatory term in Hindi was the second bully in my claim. Imagine having two bullies walking around one being a manager and his best friend with a billion dollar company supporting them as they know if this gets out to the public, it will ruin the company's reputation being a flag carrier of the UK.

[ULA]

I obviously cannot say whether the Respondent has provided a full response in their ET3, including any Grounds of Resistance. Given that the date of the correspondence from the Tribunal is nearly a month after the ET3 deadline for the extended submission, then it is likely that both this submission and ET1 have been seen by a Judge. If you want to make certain, then I suggest you give the Tribunal a call to confirm that this is the case and that you would expect to be provided with the full response when it has been submitted.

In respect of the two employees, their concern about retaliation is not surprising if they are still working there but certainly if the male witness does leave in due course and you feel it would be helpful in supporting your claim, then I suggest you ask him to prepare a witness statement and be available for any hearing. If the lady is not prepared to be a witness and provide a statement, you may be able to refer to the incident, particularly if there is supporting email/s, as part of your own witness statement and the emails would need to be disclosed as part of the disclosure process.

[Kazdoyle]

Thank you for the quick response. Yes the respondent did provide the grounds of resistance as part of their ET3 however they went on to mention that the grievance is still ongoing. Although they refer to the grievance hearing manager clearing the 3 bullies I made the claim against. They should have provided the final outcome of the grievance to me and allowed me to appeal if they felt the need the point out to the grievance hearing manager stating the bullies are all innocent.
Not really sure how does one sit on a grievance investigation for 9 months. I provided 3 witnesses who all had their meetings recorded during the grievance meetings. And they supported every incident I reported. Can I request the grievance investigation report along with the video recordings for the tribunal hearing? I also sent in medical documents, for the grievance hearing but none of my information has been notated in their grounds of resistance even my witnesses weren't mentioned.

I believe the ET judge has saw their grounds of resistance and just like me, it looks denial with no back up evidence from the respondent. I'm really hoping that it wasn't a mistake by the judge. I did call the tribunal twice this week and was told the judge does not make mistakes on Orders and he would have definitely seen the ET3/grounds of resistance. Since then the Respondent has replied to the Tribunal stating that their submission on 25 July was the full response to the claim. I'm hoping there will be a response from the tribunal in the coming weeks to respond on the email from the respondent. What if the judge says he is not buying their grounds of resistance? What's happens then?

[ULA]

Just as a general comment 9 months to deal with a grievance is rather a long time unless they have a very details and comprehensive reason for it taking so long.

It sounds like as far as the respondent is concerned they have given, what they believe, to be the full response that they are going to provide.

You will more than likely hear from the Tribunal prior to the PHR as you may both be required to complete a Case Management Agenda document for submission to each other and the Employment Tribunal. The purpose of the preliminary hearing is for both parties to set out to the tribunal the case and enables the tribunal judge to give directions to both parties on what more they have to do to get ready for the final tribunal hearing. If the judge does not think the respondent has provided full details then the judge will set out what is required.

"Can I request the grievance investigation report along with the video recordings for the tribunal hearing?"
These documents should be part of the process of disclosure and if the respondent does not freely disclose them, then you can ask for them to be included in the bundle.


"I also sent in medical documents, for the grievance hearing but none of my information has been notated in their grounds of resistance even my witnesses weren't mentioned."
What the respondent decides to set out in their ET3 or GoR is down to them. If you feel they medical documents will be relevant to your claim then they need to be part of the disclosure process.

[Kazdoyle]

Hi ULA,

I have my PHR on 10 Jan 2023. The ET wanted the Case agenda to be sent in 7 days before the Preliminary hearing and I did that. I copied the respondent as well. As of today there is no response from the respondent on their case agenda. I spoke with the ET team who confirmed they haven't received any agenda from the respondent as well.
My question is what will happen on 10 Jan when I attend the preliminary hearing with no respondent agenda to discuss? What will the judge do or say?

[ULA]

It is likely that it will be noted by the Judge that the respondent did not send the agenda in advance as required, however at the very least they should take copies to the hearing if they have completed it but not complied with the timings. Also remember to take copies of your agenda as well.

Depending on how long the PHR has been listed for the Judge will still try to see if is possible to get some form of outcome from the hearing and may ask the respondent for a response on key aspects of the agenda, depending on what you have set out in your version. A worst case scenario is that it would be postponed and both parties given orders of what to have prepared and in what timescale for any rescheduled hearing.

Hope it goes well for you tomorrow.

[Kazdoyle]

Thank you ULA. The respondent replied late last evening using my agenda. They literally wrote over some of my questions under 4.1. The judge was very helpful and contrary to my perception, she even assisted in pointing out the protected acts that started in 2019.. At the same time, the judge did disclose that she worked with the respondent's solicitor and if I wanted to go ahead with the PHR or not. I had trust in the justice system and her so agreed for her to do the PHR.

We will affectively have another PHR in April 2023 and final hearing in June 2024 over a video call. If I picked in person hearing, it would have been Jan 2025.
I need to start with the witness statement for the PHR on Time limits in regards to my sexual harassment against 2 individuals.

Overall, I'm glad I came on this site because it gave me the knowledge and one to one support that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else.

Thank you very much ULA. You are a God-send to many of us who cannot afford legal services.

[ULA]

Glad to hear that the PHR went ok and as suspected, that you have a further PHR but at least you hearing dates have all been scheduled. I have heard of cases being set for late 2024 but you are the first to tell me about 2025 for an in person hearing.

Good to hear that you felt we have given you some support through this process. Can I suggest you bookmark the URL for this thread and if you need any more help as the case progress just come back to post on this thread.

[Kazdoyle]

Hi ULA,

I'm back again in need of your advice. My second PHR is in April and the judge had given the respondent the responsibility of preparing the bundle. The Respondent hasn't complied with any of the actions that the Judge has set:
07 Feb 2023 - Respondent to confirm to claimant any response from potential witnesses (Not Actioned)
06 Mar 2023 - Respondent to send draft bundle to Claimant. (Not Actioned)
13 Mar 2023 - Respondent and Claimant to agree Draft bundle. (Not Actioned)

As a claimant, I need to send the Witness statement on 20 Mar 2023 to the Respondent, however without the bundle, I am not able to notate/cross reference my witness statement to the evidence in the bundle. On 20 Feb 2023, I had sent across the evidence to the Respondent to help prepare the bundle.

I have emailed the ET and copied the respondent yesterday but still no response.

What should I do at this stage?

Thanks for your help.

[ULA]

Were the actions set by the Judge set out in and Order that both you and the respondent received?

I appreciate you have emailed the ET and respondent but what did you say in that email? Highly unlikely you will receive a response from the Tribunal for a while.

Have you tried to chase up with the respondent previously their lack of keeping to the timescales or is this the first time?

[Kazdoyle]

Hi ULA,

Yes the order was part of a CMO from the first Preliminary hearing in Jan 23. The second hearing in April is for time limitations and the CMO laid out the actions to be carried out before the hearing.

Copy of my email below sent to the ET and Respondent copied as well.:

"Dear Sir/ Madam,
As per the Judge's instructions from the last Preliminary hearing (documents attached), the below dates were set for documents to be exchanged. The Respondent hasn't complied with any of the actions that the Judge has set:

07 Feb 2023 - Respondent to confirm to claimant any response from witnesses (Not Actioned)
06 Mar 2023 - Respondent to send draft bundle to Claimant. (Not Actioned)
13 Mar 2023 - Respondent and Claimant to agree Draft bundle. (Not Actioned)

As a claimant, I need to send the Witness statement on 20 Mar 2023 to the Respondent, however without the bundle, I am not able to notate/cross reference my witness statement to the evidence in the bundle. On 20 Feb 2023, I had sent across the evidence to the Respondent to help prepare the bundle.

Please can you help and advice a way forward as the Respondent isn't replying to any of my emails?"

The Respondent is a repeat offender with not responding. For the Jan 2023 Preliminary hearing, they did not prepare the case management order before 7days before the hearing as ordered by the judge. Instead they wrote over my CMO the night before the hearing and sent it across to the ET and me. That left me no time to understand what they wrote.

I still haven't received a response from yesterday's email. They haven't responded to any of my chaser emails.

Since I don't know how to compile a bundle. Can I just send my witness statement and evidence to the ET on Monday (20 Mar) and explain the reason? Will copy the R as I have done on all my emails.

Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks again.

[ULA]

Unfortunately it is highly unlikely your request to the Tribunal for advice will result in any being forthcoming. If you have made repeated attempts to engage with the respondent to comply with the orders and have not had any response then it would have been better to make an application to the Tribunal for one of either an order for disclosure of the documents in accordance with the CMO or an Unless Order on the same basis.

The issue that you have is that without the bundle your WS will not cross-refer to documents in the bundle provided by the respondent that you may want to rely on in the April hearing, albeit it seems this has been set for a specific reason around limitation. Yes in theory if the respondent is not forthcoming in producing a bundle then you can make you own which you will have to do in accordance with the protocol for preparing bundles. However that normally does not need to be with the Tribunal until nearer the hearing date. Is the hearing in person or via video?

I cannot see any reference to the exchange of Witness Statements, where has the date of 20 March come from?

It may be worth writing to the respondent over the weekend along the lines of:

Dear xxxx,

As you will be aware from the copied in correspondence to you of xxx (insert date) I have been in contact with the ET regarding your non-compliance with the Case Management Orders as set out by Judge xxxx (insert name) on xxxx (insert date of Orders). The Case Management Orders set out dates for which you needed to comply so that the claim can be progressed and in that regard you have clearly not engaged in the process and complied with the Orders. Please can you respond back to this email by receipt to update on when you can confirm any response from witnesses (which was due to me on 7 Feb 2023) and providing me the draft bundle (due on 6 March) for joint agreement.

If I do not hear from you on this matter then I will be making an application to the Tribunal in this regard. (At this stage I would not be specific about what type of application you are going to make).

Let's see if that gets them moving.

Just to let you know I have limited availability over the next few days so there may be a delay in responding to posts.

[Kazdoyle]

Hi ULA,

Thank you once again for that email template, I just now emailed the respondent with my witness statement accompanied with the email wording you set out.

Apologies, I should have explained better the whole reason for the second PHR. Initially we have one in Jan 2023 to discuss the bullying and harassment by my line manager and two colleagues. The Line manager's bullying, harassment and victimisation was continuous until my dismissal in Dec 2021. The Judge therefore decided that the Line manager's discrimination will go to the final hearing in June 2024 (video hearing). With respect to the two colleagues, their harassment ended in Aug and May 2021 respectively. Due to my filing the claim in April with ACAS's intervention, anything prior to 16 Dec 2021 was in effect out of time. The judge had set the second PHR in April for me to explain why I need the time limitation extended for the other two colleagues.

I have explained everything in detail in my witness statement with evidence to back up how I only got to know about ACAS in Dec 2021 and not earlier. Therefore I had no clue about deadlines for Time limitations or unfair dismissal.

The CMO that preceded the PHR in Jan 2023, had quite a few dates for the respondent and myself to comply with for the hearing in April 2023. Dates below:

07 Feb 2023 - Respondent to confirm to claimant any response from witnesses (Not Actioned)
06 Mar 2023 - Respondent to send draft bundle to Claimant. (Not Actioned)
13 Mar 2023 - Respondent and Claimant to agree Draft bundle. (Not Actioned)

20 Feb 2023 - Claimant to send evidence to the Respondent - Done
07 Mar 2023 - Claimant to confirm witnesses to the ET and Respondent for the Final Hearing in June 2024 -Done
20 Mar 2023 - Claimant to send witness statement to the Respondent - Done

10 April 2023 - Respondent to send PHR bundle + witness statement electronically to the ET for the hearing in April 2023.

Since I couldn't reference the evidence in the bundle (which I still haven't received), I added an extra page to the witness statement which read 'Evidence' and I listed the titles of all the evidence sent across to support my witness statement.
If the Respondent doesn't reply, I might have to prepare the bundle and edit my witness statement to cross reference the page numbers of the evidence used. A lot of unwanted work for me when I have a 6 month old lactose intolerant baby and is doing poorly at the minute. But I can't complain when others have it worse )

Thanks again for all your help ULA.