Gravience/Disciplinary proceeding at work

[Koval41]

Welcome All

At first I would like to apologize for my english. It is not my native language, so please forgive me any mistatkes

I have problem at work and I really need help beacuse whole situation confusing me.

Last week I had an incident with a co-worker. He started a groundless argument with me, during which he started screaming and calling me names - he didn't stop even as I asked him to stop call me names because I'm not doing that. I have two witnesses for this.

About 5 minutes later, after he proved to himself that his pretensioms against me were groundless, pointing at him with my finger I said "see, I told you!". Then he pushed me and punch me into me face. This was recorded by monitoring.

I immediately went to the manager and reported it. Manager checked the recording from the cctv monitoring. He came back and said that he "just" pushed me. I said I want to see the recording. He said "no". After a short conversation, he told me that we are both suspended on full pay and we have to go home now.

The same day I received an e-mail confirming the suspension on full pay and information that I should write a statement about what happened and why, because the investigation was initiated. Also two witnesses were asked for statements - i know that they confirmed what happened.

I send my statement, and after two days I got an email saying:

"Hi Adam, please find attached an invite for a disciplinary hearing which will take place at 8pm on Wednesday the 13^th of May."


But, attached letter is saying(text in bold done by me):

"You are asked to attend a disciplinary meeting with XXXX at 8pm on Wednesday the 13^th of May 2020.
The company would like to discuss issues relating to the Incident you had with XXXXXX on Tuesday the 5^th of May 2020.
Further details will be given at that meeting and you will have a chance to explain your side of the incident.
A copy of the company's disciplinary procedure may be found in the company's staff handbook.
It is important that you attend the meeting, at which you may be accompanied by a trade union representative or by a colleague of your choice, but you must make the arrangements for this yourself.
That person can either act as your representative and address the meeting, or merely attend as your witness. However, that person cannot answer questions on your behalf. I would be grateful if you would let me know if you wish to be accompanied.
If there is anything which is unclear at the meeting, you should say so immediately. If you think you have not had an opportunity to put your case across as fully as you wish, you should also say so.
If you are dissatisfied with any action taken by the company as a result of the hearing, you will have a right of appeal which will be explained to you in the letter confirming the outcome of the hearing."

Confused about development of the whole situation and because letter clearly is saying that it is disciplinary meeting, I wrote back asking them to claryfy what type of meeting is it and whether I am subject to disciplinary action.

They response:

"The company is following the guidelines as set out in the staff handbook. At the moment the meeting forms part of the investigation. The meeting is there to determine if you are subject to disciplinary action."

I checked hand book, and there are two section; "Gravience procedures" and "Disciplinary procedures". In both meetings are called just "meeting" or "hearing".
Also, I know and I checked it on ACAS webpage that there is an important difference between "investigation meeting/hearing" and "disciplinary meeting/hearing".


My questions are:
1) If, as letter is stating, this is disciplinary meeting with possible outcome:

• Is it failure to comply with procedures(ACAS quidelines) because first they should arrange investigation meeting and then,
  based on investigation outcome arrange potential disciplinary meeting?
• Also, before potential disciplinary meeting do they have to inform me about any allegations, give me copy of all documentation like statements, cctv recording, etc... ?
• Do I have right to tell them on the meeting that I am not going to take part on this disciplinary meeting because they are failing to comply with procedures and leave the meeting?

2) Do they have right to arrange any meeting outside my normal working hours, and when witnesses of an episode are not available?
3) Should I report an incident with my co-worker to police. Will police be able to secure cctv recordings as an evidence of assault? Will it help me in eventualy eployment tribunal case?
4) Any advice in whole situation?

Thank you for reading it...

[ULA]

Hi, you are correct in what you have found out about the distinction between an investigation meeting and a disciplinary meeting.

Clearly you were suspended whilst the company investigated the incident and even if you were asked to provide a witness statement as your colleagues were,* it often follows that there will be an investigation meeting with the suspended person to hear their version of event. However, there are times when this does not happen. Either way there should be correspondence that states the outcome of the investigation, even if that is to stay that action may be taken and that a disciplinary meeting will be arranged.*

In the first letter you have detailed it should have contained the details of the allegations, copies of all the evidence the company is relying on for its case, which gives you the chance before the meeting to prepare your defence and it should state what potential disciplinary action may be taken if the outcome does not go in your favour.*

When i read the meeting was being held at 8pm I wondered whether you worked shifts that included evenings and this was normal work time. I have certainly not heard of a disciplinary being held outside normal working hours except in special situations and by prior agreement.

If you were to report it to the police you would need to do so sooner rather than leave it too long - not my area of expertise but I do know that reporting these things soon after the event is better otherwise the police question why you have left it so long to report.*

Are you going to get someone to accompany you to the meeting, given the situation I would suggest this may be a good thing to do even if they just take notes of what is said by each person present.

I suggest that one of the first things you do at the start of the meeting, given the response you got to your request for clarification, is to ask what exactly type of meeting it is* -* a disciplinary meeting or investigation meeting as part of the suspension process.

Hope this has helped but if you have any more questions just pop back to this thread.*
*

[Koval41]

Clearly you were suspended whilst the company investigated the incident and even if you were asked to provide a witness statement as your colleagues were, it often follows that there will be an investigation meeting with the suspended person to hear their version of event. However, there are times when this does not happen. Either way there should be correspondence that states the outcome of the investigation, even if that is to stay that action may be taken and that a disciplinary meeting will be arranged.

In the first letter you have detailed it should have contained the details of the allegations, copies of all the evidence the company is relying on for its case, which gives you the chance before the meeting to prepare your defence and it should state what potential disciplinary action may be taken if the outcome does not go in your favour.

So, I am right that they gave me two contradictory informations? Letter and it contents clearly states that it is disciplinary meeting, but email is saying that meeting forms part of the investigation. At the begining of the meeting I will ask them what exacly type of meeting it is.

What I should to do if they will tell me that this is investigation meeting, but during this meeting they will face me with any evidences, like statements or cctv recording? From what I know investigation meeting is to let employer get as many as possible informations about an event, and to allow me to claryfy my statement. Should I say that I want to hold meeting? and...? leave meeting?

And what I should to do if they will tell me that this is disciplinary meeting?

When i read the meeting was being held at 8pm I wondered whether you worked shifts that included evenings and this was normal work time. I have certainly not heard of a disciplinary being held outside normal working hours except in special situations and by prior agreement.

I am working on night shift and my normal working hours are from 10pm to 6am. For last 6-7 weeks night shift was closed and temporary moved on day shifts due pandemic outburst and lack of orders. But from last Sunday I should be on night shift again because they reopen it. So, episode with co-worker took place when I was on PM shift, but meeting itself is outside my working hours because I should be at night shift now. Also, 8pm is a time when my both witnesses are no available - one is working from 6am to 2pm, second 10pm to 6am.

Are you going to get someone to accompany you to the meeting, given the situation I would suggest this may be a good thing to do even if they just take notes of what is said by each person present.

Yes, I going with my colleague from work.

Thx.

Upade:
I think it is disciplinary meeting.
Today morning I got an email, 13 hours before meeting, from manager with text "just for your information" and attached copies of all statements, but no cctv recordings from monitoring. How I can prepare for meeting now?

[ULA]

Thank you for the update. Just to get you some immediate guidance given the receipt of the email this morning.

I think you need to email back and ask for clarification as to whether the meeting is a disciplinary or investigatory. If they confirm it is a disciplinary then say that since they have only just provided the evidence of which the CCTV recording seems to be missing you have not been given adequate time to prepare for the meeting and request that a new date be arranged to allow you to be given reasonable time to prepare. If they confirm it is investigatory then so long as you have had time to read the information the meeting should focus on understanding your view on the events that happened.*

[Koval41]

Thank you for reply.

I read Disciplinary procedure in Hand Book again. It says:
* 19 Disciplinary procedure

19.1Policy statement

The Company is committed to the development of all its team members through proper training, planned experience and coaching.* Where there are issues surrounding your performance or conduct the company prefers to deal with these on an informal counselling basis, and as such its disciplinary procedures are non contractual. Where, however, such counselling is not effective or is inappropriate, the Company will initiate a formal disciplinary procedure in the interests of consistency and fairness.




In particular, the Company relies on Line Managersto establish and maintain standards of*conduct and work performance.* Line Managers should make every effort to correct shortcomings through offering advice and encouragement before resorting to disciplinary measures.*


* 19.2Informal counselling - Stage 1

Minor problems in conduct or performance can often be handled effectively through informal counselling and advice.* This approach should take the form of a discussion with the objective of helping you to reach the required competence or standards of conduct.


* 19.3Formal disciplinary action - Stage 2

The following are examples of situations where disciplinary action may be taken; this list is illustrative and is not exhaustive:


*

• • Failure to adhere to working hours e.g. persistent lateness;
  • Unauthorised absence from work;
  • Unacceptable level of absence;
  • Refusal or failure to obey a reasonable instruction;
  • Being an accessory to a disciplinary offence by another individual;
  • Failure to follow the Company’s procedure.
  • Falsification of paperwork

Where informal counselling has not succeeded or is not appropriate because of the seriousness of the conduct or performance issue, line managers will now take formal disciplinary action. In general, there are three stages involved in the formal disciplinary process:

• investigating;
• conducting the hearing; and
• deciding the outcome.

19.4Investigating – general

Before any decision can be made as to whether formal disciplinary action is necessary, a full investigation will take place as promptly as possible.*


* 19.5Suspension / Conducting a hearing:

At any stage of the Disciplinary Procedure the Company may, if it considers it appropriate, suspend the team member from duty pending investigations into their conduct and performance. The team member will be paid at basic rate for the period of suspension. A period of suspension pending investigation will be the minimum consistent with allowing the necessary facts and information to be obtained by the Company, and will be no longer than two calendar weeks.




You will be informed in writing not less than 24 hours before the time of the hearing that you are required to attend a disciplinary hearing giving the date and time of the hearing and the reason why the disciplinary hearing has been called.




You have the right to be accompanied by a work colleague or your trade union representative, which you must organise yourself.




During the hearing you may offer any explanation or evidence from witnesses that may be relevant.




The hearing may be adjourned if it becomes clear that:

1. special circumstances exist;
2. emotions are running too high to permit proper discussion of the facts; or
3. further investigation and/or checking of facts is required.

An adjournment for these reasons should be for no more than three working days unless either party has a genuine reason for requiring a longer adjournment.*


* 19.6The role of the accompanying representative

All employees called to a disciplinary hearing are entitled to be accompanied in line with the ACAS code of Practice, in simple terms this means by a work colleague or qualified and certified union official. It will be made clear to the accompanying work colleague that the Company actively encourages their attendance and welcomes their contribution.* The work colleague should be advised that they are obliged to keep confidential all discussions relating to the particular disciplinary process in which they have been requested to participate.




If your chosen work colleague or qualified and certified union official is not available at the time and date of the hearing, you may request a postponement of the hearing. This must be granted at the Companies discretion and no hearing will be postponed for longer than 7 days or be postponed on more than one occasion.

Where your chosen work colleague is also subject to disciplinary proceedings for the same or a similar offence they cannot accompany you as this may prejudice your hearing. 19.7Deciding the outcome

Once you have put forward your case, the line manager and accompanying manager if relevant will withdraw to give full consideration to all the evidence and to decide whether any disciplinary penalty should be imposed. Your previous disciplinary record will be taken into account when reaching their decision.
On returning to the hearing, the line manager will summarise the points that have been covered, the disciplinary penalty being imposed, if any, and the reasons why this action has been taken.


* 19.8After the hearing

The disciplinary penalty will be confirmed in writing to you within seven days (including weekends) of the hearing. Where appropriate, the letter will outline:


*

• a description of the misconduct or poor performance;
• the improvement required and the way in which this will be measured;
• the period of time given for improvement and the dates of any reviews;
• the likely consequences of further misconduct or poor performance;
• the individual's right to appeal; and
• the disciplinary penalty and how long it will remain in force.

* 19.9Disciplinary Sanctions and Duration

Other than in cases of gross misconduct you will not normally be dismissed for a first offence. Except in acts of gross misconduct, the following actions will normally be adopted. Depending upon the breach of discipline we may take action at any stage for a first or second offence, if it is appropriate.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My question:

Company Disciplinary procedure is saying that investigation itself is already part of formal disciplinary procedure(?). Should they still inform me about allegation, possible outcome, and sent me compy of all evidences before investigation meeting or disciplinary meeting? And what with ACAS guideline and difference between disciplinary and investigation meeting? What with my wetnesees if thay are not available during the meeting?

[ULA]

There does sometimes have to be an investigation before disciplinary action is taken particularly if the employee is not suspended at the time.

They should still inform and provide all evidence the are going to rely on at the disciplinary hearing, advise of possible outcomes etc. Witnesses are not often required to attend a disciplinary hearing but their witness statement should have been provided to you in the evidence that come with the letter.

If the meeting is part of an investigation rather than a disciplinary then again witnesses would not be present at your meeting. What may happen is that they might have a separate meeting with the investigating manager if things are unclear from their witness statement and further explanation/clarification is required.

[Koval41]

Hi Again.

I do not even know how to start....

Just to remaind you:
Last week I had an incident with a co-worker. He started a groundless argument with me, during which he started screaming and calling me names - he didn't stop even as I asked him to stop call me names because I'm not doing that. I have two witnesses for this. About 5 minutes later, after he proved to himself that his pretensions against me were groundless, pointing at him with my finger I said "see, I told you!". Then he pushed me and punch me into me face. This was recorded by cctv monitoring.

I am after meeting. At the begining they did all formal things... - this is why I know now that it was disciplinary meeting - but as I mentioned in a post before they claryfy, before this meeting, in email that this meeting form part of investigation to determine if I am subject of disciplinary action.

Later they informed me that there are allegations against me which are:
1) Breach of helth and safety rules
2) Fighting, assault, or threatening or abusive behaviour

Outcome: Immediate dismissal for gross misconduct.

When they informed me abaut allegatins, I asked them why they did not inform me about them and about possible outcome at reasonable time before meeting. Thet told me "but we are doing it now". So I told them that I am concerned because they did not follow ACAS quidelines for disciplinary procedings. They replied that they ar following company procedings. I told them that because they did not inform me abaut allegations, possible outcome, and did not send me all evidences(Iv got statements only) before meeting i was not able do prepare for this meeting in proper way. They replied sorry we following company procedures, and if I want they cen read it form me now.

Later they face me with evidences - cctv recording and statement of my co-worker.

Now...
They told me that I breach health and safety rules because I did not keeped 2 meters social distancing during incident with my co-worker.
And second allegation - I point him by finger.

They did not take whole situation into account, that he first screamed, called me names, and later push me and punch me into face, they just picked up that particular moment when I point him by finger.

Also they told me that yes, he called me names by they are unable to determine what exacly he said to me because there is no audio recording of this incident, and my two witnesses did not specyfied in statements what words he used. I asked them if they did interview with witnesses - they said "no".

I have seven days to appel.

P.S.
Believe me or not, but I do not know if I should laugh or cry now ...

[ULA]

A question i should have asked earlier is how long have you been employed at the company?

Your next step, if you wanted, would be to appeal the decision to dismiss you. The main reasons for doing so would possibly be:

1. Not follow a fair procedure by not providing all the documentary evidence to you that would be used in the meeting.
2. Not giving reasonable notice of the meeting to give you time to prepare.
3. The dismissal is unfair since all of the evidence has not been taken into account in that it was the other person who started the incident by shouting and calling you names.
4. The fact that his person went on to push you which also breached health and safety rules.

Also I just want to ask, could

what he was shouting at you and the names he was calling you be considered discriminatory in any way? If so then this needs to be raised.

[Koval41]

ULA thank you for reply.

I am working there almost 3 years on full pernament contract.

Regarding to reasons to appeal:

ad 1) They told me that they couldnt send me copy of cctv recording because it is a property of comapny(data protection) - but on recording there are me and person who pushed me only.

ad 2) Notice of meeting was send to me by email five days before meeting, but statements were send to me 12 hours before meeting. Also they did not give me any information about allegations and possible outcome.

ad 3) Agree, and this is my main concern - they did not take whole incident into account. The person who shout and called me names did it for no reason and I point on this person just after he proved it to him self. He called me really bad - and was dismissed too.

There is another question:

Did they have right to punish me for not keeping 2 meters distancing? In my everyday life I trying to keep it, but:
- I checked and there is no any legislation force people to keep 2 meters distancing, and it was confirmed by National Police Chiefs Cuncil that even police have no power to force people to do so.
- If company will take any cctv recording from any day they will easly find that none of company staff is keeping 2 meters social distaning - including managers who conducted disciplinary meeting and dismissed me. In many ocasions, but not only it is because there is not possible to do so - small areas.

[ULA]

All employers have a duty for the health and safety of their staff and given the current guidelines for COVID19 then social distancing of 2 metres needs to be adhered to and employers should be enforcing this.

However in doing so they should be consistent in ensuring all staff comply and where staff do not they take a consistent action.