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Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!
Hello,
I'm new here (fantastic site!)
and just looking for a bit of advice on a certain problem I'm having.
What ever you can offer I will appreciate it greatly as i'd really like to arm myself with information before I take any further action.
I'll try to provide as much information as I can but if there is anything you want to know that you feel is relevant then please let me know.
I have worked since I left school but I left my job after my maternity leave finished and then my partner lost his job to redundancy so naturally I decided to return.
So far I have been unsuccessful, and have been unemployed for 16 months now, as I only have GCSE's I thought i'd have more chance if I returned to study.
Rather than go for any course I thought best to study something I enjoy that will allow me the opportunity to have the kind of career I have always wanted.
If i'm going to do it I may as well do it right.
I'd just missed the cut off for the full-time courses so I waited, bought a sewing machine and began to improve my skills and build a portfolio.
Now the new college year is approaching I have applied to do BTEC in Fashion and Clothing (after this I want to go on to do teaching so I can teach the subject - to do this you need to have relevant qualifications in the chosen subject).
I recieved a call from someone at the college telling me they wouldn't get the funding as i'm over 19 so I should look into other options.
I explained that i'd looked into the possible pathways and this was the most feasible option for me and what I want to do.
They haven't even bothered to view my portfolio - or interview me.
I got the feeling that it was all down to my age.
Disheartened but undeterred I came away trying to find alternative options that would allow me to do the course.
As I'm not working it's not possible to pay the course fee's out of my own pocket so I searched out a career advice line (on the direct gov website).
They found the situation a little odd and told me about something called Fee Remission where the college allows people in certain categories to study for free (including unemployed and low wage earners) and they are refunded the cost via the Learning Skills council.
They also told me there is a government scheme to allow people to study their first level 3 course for free.
They gave me websites to seek funding from independent charities and so I also looked into that and applied for several.
Today I called the college again and spoke to someone from student services to ask how much the course costs .
She told me that the college isn't accepting anyone over the age of 19 on their Creative media and Arts courses.
She kept going on about funding and I said but what if I was to find external funding and she still said that I wouldn't be allowed to do it because they had a high number of applications for 16-19 year olds and preference is given to them.
I did ask why preference would be given to them - especially considering they haven't yet recieved their GCSE results, but she simply said it was because their places are government funded.
I would think that places should be allocated on a first come first served basis.
I find it odd that the college are discriminating against people over the age of 19 especially when their website states they maintain outstanding equality of opportunity, and their code of conduct says they eliminate barriers in terms of gender age etc...
She told me I would do better to look into studying at another college but the others are a fair distance and the nearest one that runs the course I want to do is too far to travel.
Does anyone one have any knowledge of the laws etc regarding this matter, and please can you give me some advice on what steps I can take because I still want to do this course and i'm willing to fight it all the way.
I don't mind if it is necessary, kicking up a stink!
Thanks,
Mama Doo.
EDIT
Just wanted to add something I have found here is this relevant and does anyone know if this is still applicable?
I'm new here (fantastic site!)
and just looking for a bit of advice on a certain problem I'm having.What ever you can offer I will appreciate it greatly as i'd really like to arm myself with information before I take any further action.
I'll try to provide as much information as I can but if there is anything you want to know that you feel is relevant then please let me know.
I have worked since I left school but I left my job after my maternity leave finished and then my partner lost his job to redundancy so naturally I decided to return.
So far I have been unsuccessful, and have been unemployed for 16 months now, as I only have GCSE's I thought i'd have more chance if I returned to study.
Rather than go for any course I thought best to study something I enjoy that will allow me the opportunity to have the kind of career I have always wanted.
If i'm going to do it I may as well do it right.
I'd just missed the cut off for the full-time courses so I waited, bought a sewing machine and began to improve my skills and build a portfolio.
Now the new college year is approaching I have applied to do BTEC in Fashion and Clothing (after this I want to go on to do teaching so I can teach the subject - to do this you need to have relevant qualifications in the chosen subject).
I recieved a call from someone at the college telling me they wouldn't get the funding as i'm over 19 so I should look into other options.
I explained that i'd looked into the possible pathways and this was the most feasible option for me and what I want to do.
They haven't even bothered to view my portfolio - or interview me.
I got the feeling that it was all down to my age.
Disheartened but undeterred I came away trying to find alternative options that would allow me to do the course.
As I'm not working it's not possible to pay the course fee's out of my own pocket so I searched out a career advice line (on the direct gov website).
They found the situation a little odd and told me about something called Fee Remission where the college allows people in certain categories to study for free (including unemployed and low wage earners) and they are refunded the cost via the Learning Skills council.
They also told me there is a government scheme to allow people to study their first level 3 course for free.
They gave me websites to seek funding from independent charities and so I also looked into that and applied for several.
Today I called the college again and spoke to someone from student services to ask how much the course costs .
She told me that the college isn't accepting anyone over the age of 19 on their Creative media and Arts courses.
She kept going on about funding and I said but what if I was to find external funding and she still said that I wouldn't be allowed to do it because they had a high number of applications for 16-19 year olds and preference is given to them.
I did ask why preference would be given to them - especially considering they haven't yet recieved their GCSE results, but she simply said it was because their places are government funded.
I would think that places should be allocated on a first come first served basis.
I find it odd that the college are discriminating against people over the age of 19 especially when their website states they maintain outstanding equality of opportunity, and their code of conduct says they eliminate barriers in terms of gender age etc...
She told me I would do better to look into studying at another college but the others are a fair distance and the nearest one that runs the course I want to do is too far to travel.
Does anyone one have any knowledge of the laws etc regarding this matter, and please can you give me some advice on what steps I can take because I still want to do this course and i'm willing to fight it all the way.
I don't mind if it is necessary, kicking up a stink!
Thanks,
Mama Doo.
EDIT
Just wanted to add something I have found here is this relevant and does anyone know if this is still applicable?
The Age Regulations
Regulations 20and 23 contain the law most relevant to further education colleges in terms of their relationships with students, their admission and guidance policies and planning of their course offer.This Quality Information Pack will focus on these Regulations.
Regulation 20concerns the provision of vocational training and states:
“It is unlawful, in relation to a person seeking or undergoing training, for any training provider to discriminate against him –
a) in the arrangement he makes for the purpose of determining to whom he should offer training;
b) in the terms on which the training provider affords him access to any training;
c) by refusing or deliberately not affording him such access;
d) by terminating his training; or
e) by subjecting him to any other detriment during his training”
A “training provider” is defined as “any person who provides, or makes arrangements for the provision of, training.”
It is important to note that Regulation 20 does not apply where Regulation 23 applies.
Regulation 23 states that it is unlawful for an FE college to discriminate against a person:
“(a) in the terms on which it offers to admit him to the establishment as a student;
(b)by refusing or deliberately not accepting an application for his admission to the establishment as a student; or
(c)where he is a student of the establishment—
(i) in the way it affords him access to any benefits,
(ii)by refusing or deliberately not affording him access to them, or
(iii)by excluding him from the establishment or subjecting him to any other detriment.”
Thus the relationship between a college or provider of training and its students and potential students is caught by the Age Regulations.Regulation 24 covers past students. The activities caught by the Age Regulations will include the information that is provided by prospectuses and course leaflets, the information, advice and guidance which offer places to students and the offering of places on courses which may in some colleges have previously been directed at certain age groups.
Under the Age Regulations, the definition of discrimination includes:
· Direct discrimination which occurs when an individual of one age is treated less favourably because of his/her age than others of a different age.
· Indirect discrimination which occurs when an apparently age-neutral provision, criterion or practice has the effect ofdisadvantaging people of a particular age compared to others
Both direct and indirect discrimination can be justified if the college can show that the less favourable treatment, or the provision, criterion or practice, is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. Case law in other areas of equality indicates that detailed consideration needs to be given to the “justification” in advance of doing the act, rather than seeking to justify it after a complaint is made.There are also a number of specific exemption, most of which concern the employment relationship.
It is also worth noting Regulation 19which concerns “Qualification Bodies”. It states that it is unlawful for a qualification body to discriminate against a person in the terms on which it is prepared to confer a professional or trade qualification on him. “Qualification body” is defined as being any authority or body which can confer a professional or trade qualification. It is unlikely that this Regulation will apply to FE colleges.First, because it cannot apply where Regulation 23 (above) applies; and secondly, because it is likely that an FE college or other vocational training provider offers training and instruction that leads to assessment for other bodies’ awards (ie the college does not itself confer the award).
There are various exceptions to the legislation which may apply to some of an FE college’s activities.Some of these are discussed below.It should be noted that until tested by court cases all current advice is provisional.Parliament sets the words of the legislation and Employment Tribunals and the Courts interpret those words.
DTI Guidance
The LSC cites the Department of Trade and Industry as the source of information on this subject.The DTI provides a useful resource with 8 “Age Legislation Fact Sheets” covering an over-view, objective justification, transitional arrangements, vocational training, service-related benefits, redundancy, retirement and occupational pensions. http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/discrimination/age-discrimination/index.html
Fact Sheet 4 (which concerns vocational training) makes it clear that“all courses” offered by further and higher education institutions will be covered by the Age Regulations as will other organisations, including private companies, that offer vocational training.The fact sheet states “colleges will not be able to set age limits for entry to training, unless they can show there is a real need to apply such limits”.It also makes it clear that “schools, including sixth-form providers, are excluded from the regulations on the grounds that the education of pupils in schools is not vocational training.”While that statement is true of schoolsixth forms, the same cannot be said of sixth form colleges which are conducted by further education corporations.There is a technical argument that Age Regulations are at fault in extending their application to sixth form colleges, but as the law stands, sixth form colleges are covered by the Age Regulations.
As stated above the law recognises that differences in treatment on the grounds of age can sometimes be “justified”.However this needs to be objectively justified and should be “a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim”.The DTI fact sheets provide some further guidance on this, but perhaps the most significant aspect is that funding (or rather cost or expense) will not in itself be a valid justification.
Regulations 20and 23 contain the law most relevant to further education colleges in terms of their relationships with students, their admission and guidance policies and planning of their course offer.This Quality Information Pack will focus on these Regulations.
Regulation 20concerns the provision of vocational training and states:
“It is unlawful, in relation to a person seeking or undergoing training, for any training provider to discriminate against him –
a) in the arrangement he makes for the purpose of determining to whom he should offer training;
b) in the terms on which the training provider affords him access to any training;
c) by refusing or deliberately not affording him such access;
d) by terminating his training; or
e) by subjecting him to any other detriment during his training”
A “training provider” is defined as “any person who provides, or makes arrangements for the provision of, training.”
It is important to note that Regulation 20 does not apply where Regulation 23 applies.
Regulation 23 states that it is unlawful for an FE college to discriminate against a person:
“(a) in the terms on which it offers to admit him to the establishment as a student;
(b)by refusing or deliberately not accepting an application for his admission to the establishment as a student; or
(c)where he is a student of the establishment—
(i) in the way it affords him access to any benefits,
(ii)by refusing or deliberately not affording him access to them, or
(iii)by excluding him from the establishment or subjecting him to any other detriment.”
Thus the relationship between a college or provider of training and its students and potential students is caught by the Age Regulations.Regulation 24 covers past students. The activities caught by the Age Regulations will include the information that is provided by prospectuses and course leaflets, the information, advice and guidance which offer places to students and the offering of places on courses which may in some colleges have previously been directed at certain age groups.
Under the Age Regulations, the definition of discrimination includes:
· Direct discrimination which occurs when an individual of one age is treated less favourably because of his/her age than others of a different age.
· Indirect discrimination which occurs when an apparently age-neutral provision, criterion or practice has the effect ofdisadvantaging people of a particular age compared to others
Both direct and indirect discrimination can be justified if the college can show that the less favourable treatment, or the provision, criterion or practice, is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. Case law in other areas of equality indicates that detailed consideration needs to be given to the “justification” in advance of doing the act, rather than seeking to justify it after a complaint is made.There are also a number of specific exemption, most of which concern the employment relationship.
It is also worth noting Regulation 19which concerns “Qualification Bodies”. It states that it is unlawful for a qualification body to discriminate against a person in the terms on which it is prepared to confer a professional or trade qualification on him. “Qualification body” is defined as being any authority or body which can confer a professional or trade qualification. It is unlikely that this Regulation will apply to FE colleges.First, because it cannot apply where Regulation 23 (above) applies; and secondly, because it is likely that an FE college or other vocational training provider offers training and instruction that leads to assessment for other bodies’ awards (ie the college does not itself confer the award).
There are various exceptions to the legislation which may apply to some of an FE college’s activities.Some of these are discussed below.It should be noted that until tested by court cases all current advice is provisional.Parliament sets the words of the legislation and Employment Tribunals and the Courts interpret those words.
DTI Guidance
The LSC cites the Department of Trade and Industry as the source of information on this subject.The DTI provides a useful resource with 8 “Age Legislation Fact Sheets” covering an over-view, objective justification, transitional arrangements, vocational training, service-related benefits, redundancy, retirement and occupational pensions. http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/discrimination/age-discrimination/index.html
Fact Sheet 4 (which concerns vocational training) makes it clear that“all courses” offered by further and higher education institutions will be covered by the Age Regulations as will other organisations, including private companies, that offer vocational training.The fact sheet states “colleges will not be able to set age limits for entry to training, unless they can show there is a real need to apply such limits”.It also makes it clear that “schools, including sixth-form providers, are excluded from the regulations on the grounds that the education of pupils in schools is not vocational training.”While that statement is true of schoolsixth forms, the same cannot be said of sixth form colleges which are conducted by further education corporations.There is a technical argument that Age Regulations are at fault in extending their application to sixth form colleges, but as the law stands, sixth form colleges are covered by the Age Regulations.
As stated above the law recognises that differences in treatment on the grounds of age can sometimes be “justified”.However this needs to be objectively justified and should be “a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim”.The DTI fact sheets provide some further guidance on this, but perhaps the most significant aspect is that funding (or rather cost or expense) will not in itself be a valid justification.
I want them to confirm what the other lady told me and then I'll ask them their reasons and get them to put it to me in writing.
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