**WON** Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

[Anthony72]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

From my admittedly limited knowledge suely the most powerful tool initially is the CCA request.
If not complied with>>unenforceable
If complied with it may not be correct>> unenforceable
The Cpr 31.14 could then be used to see the NOA etc

Isn't there another CPR 18 that can be used for things not in the claim such as
The default notice
the termination notice
the deed of assignment
All those things may bring up something that can be used in a defence. If they do not provide them you could I think ask for an order demanding their production

I would have thought the more the merrier , so 5 points of defence is better than 4 better than 1

[nemesis45]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

From my admittedly limited knowledge suely the most powerful tool initially is the CCA request.
If not complied with>>unenforceable
If complied with it may not be correct>> unenforceable
The Cpr 31.14 could then be used to see the NOA etc

Isn't there another CPR 18 that can be used for things not in the claim such as
The default notice
the termination notice
the deed of assignment
All those things may bring up something that can be used in a defence. If they do not provide them you could I think ask for an order demanding their production

I would have thought the more the merrier , so 5 points of defence is better than 4 better than 1

CPR 31.14 is a request for inspection of the documents mentioned in the POC Nothing else.

Failure to comply or rejection the request can be mentioned in a defence.

nem

- - - Updated - - -

From my admittedly limited knowledge suely the most powerful tool initially is the CCA request.
If not complied with>>unenforceable
If complied with it may not be correct>> unenforceable
The Cpr 31.14 could then be used to see the NOA etc

Isn't there another CPR 18 that can be used for things not in the claim such as
The default notice
the termination notice
the deed of assignment
All those things may bring up something that can be used in a defence. If they do not provide them you could I think ask for an order demanding their production

I would have thought the more the merrier , so 5 points of defence is better than 4 better than 1

CPR 31.14 is a request for inspection of the documents mentioned in the POC Nothing else.

Failure to comply or rejection the request can be mentioned in a defence.

nem

[R0b]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

I would have thought the more the merrier , so 5 points of defence is better than 4 better than 1

Just as a FYI, listing as many defences as possible does not necessarily imply that you have a better chance of successfully defending the case because it could be construed as clutching at anything and everything in order to prevent judgment going against you. I know that some judges do not like this as court time is already limited and they see it as a waste of resources listening to a large number of arguments.

In my opinion, defences ought to be limited to a maximum of 3 arguments with the strongest argument on top. You could push to 4 if it really warrants it but probably only in exceptional circumstances, the majority of defences will not exceed this number of arguments although in some cases it might depending on the circumstances.

The points you make about termination notice and default notice could be grouped together as one argument i.e. The claimant has no right to bring a claim because it did not give notice of a default and/or notice of termination as required under the terms of the agreement / CCA 1974.

As for CPR 18 (request for further information) , that does not apply in small claims cases however this does not prevent you from making further inquiries and if the claimant refuses to provide any information then an award of costs could be given against them for unreasonable conduct and does not further the overriding objective. Part of the purpose of litigation is to exchange sufficient information for each party to evaluate the merits of its case and if one party is withholding or refusing to give information then the court might grant a costs order against them (and in uncommon circumstances against the solicitors direct).

[nemesis45]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Well said R0b,
Judges time in the county court system for reading bundles is very limited.

nem

[Anthony72]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Rob
I take your point about multiple defences , I was trying to suggest . don't put all your eggs in one basket . For example , if you rely purely on Statute Barred and somehow it is shown to be not , you have nowhere to go so if there is no compliant CCA request then surely that should be included and if the agreement falls short of compliance that too should be included all with reasons .

A point I am interested in about Cpr18 , if that is not relevant to small claims , wouldn't you just use the argument that is used when they refuse Cpr 31.14 i.e it only becomes non relevant when it is allocated to the small claims track?

Obviously I take the point that once allocated you could not ask for the judge to order disclosure

[Anthony72]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Sorry found the info although how is a mere mortal supposed to know what paragraph 3 is with regard to CPR18
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...es/part27#27.2

[R0b]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

The courts seem to use common sense and discretion with claims likely to be allocated to the small claims track. You are right that the CPR does not prevent CPR 31.14 requests and Part 18 requests but the issue with both is that applications will need to be made to the court to disclose such information or documents - usually something the defendant cannot afford and the fact that an order for disclosure will be made anyway by the court. Technically you could say they must comply but the counterargument to that is that they will simply say the case is likely to be allocated to the small claims court and so CPR 31.14 or CPR 18 wouldn't have applied and the judge taking in all of the circumstances is likely see that as being the appropriate measure.

There's no harm in doing a CPR 31.14 request or Part 18 but unless you have the funds to make the application for disclosure or for further information, I personally can't see a real need to specify it when that information can be obtained by request or a potential sanctions of a costs order may apply for unreasonable conduct..

[Anthony72]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Sorry to be a pain but am I right in thinking, if you qualify for fee remission because of low income, as many people on here seem to , this would cover the costs of an order for disclosure.

However
If I have this right, you are saying that actually just a letter asking for disclosure of certain documents is enough without getting all legal and heavy. This , if I am right seems to be at odds with the received wisdom on this site as listed in the what to do when a claim is received.

I feel I am sidetracking this thread but would like to carry on the discussion as I find it fascinating

[Debt Camel]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

we have letter from Sainsbuys 16/11/2010(before it was assigned ) stating that ' I can confirm your balance was written off on 2nd Sept 2010 and we are no longer pursuing you for this amount.'

Can I ask about the history before this letter from Sainsbury's ? For example had you offered a partial settlement? made any representations as to why you should not be liable for the debt?

[time2burn]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

to: Debt Camel

no settlement requested or accepted
we did start asking questions a few months prior to stopping making payments- as we were and still under the impression that all the credit card contracts and financing are done in fraud, so we sent some conditional notices requesting certain answers, docs, and evidence- of course they never supplied any, so we stopped paying .
the last payment was made over 6 yrs ago, and although notices were sent to Sainsburys within 6 yrs , no ack of debt within 6 yrs- hence why we statute barred applies, as well as others as mentioned in thread already

Si

[Anthony72]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Hi
Were these letters of the type asking for deeds and wet ink signatures that are commonly found on Freemen of the land style websites?
I believe that they have no standing in law

- - - Updated - - -

I still think that a CCA request would be a very important thing to do now.

[nemesis45]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Hi
Were these letters of the type asking for deeds and wet ink signatures that are commonly found on Freemen of the land style websites?
I believe that they have no standing in law

- - - Updated - - -

I still think that a CCA request would be a very important thing to do now.

I would like to see the letters that were sent, some FOTL crap opens a chance for a creditor to conclude there has been a written acknowledgment.

nem

[time2burn]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Hi

This is 1st reply From Restons on my initial CPR request

So they not provided any copy of contract
no deed of assignment or any such thing
both of which ARE mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

So another Notice reminding them of their CPR responsibilities ? and now a definite request for extension of time for defence?
anything else i should put in?
what else have they failed to do or is the info they put in overpowered by some other CPR regulation or case law we could mention?

After looking at other posts this is exactly same as other thread - Reston/Arrow/MBNA V 1vinnie. has
it is a typical batch computer letter - so what next?

Thanks
Restons reply redacted 1319.jpg

[nemesis45]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Hi

This is 1st reply From Restons on my initial CPR request

So they not provided any copy of contract
no deed of assignment or any such thing
both of which ARE mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

So another Notice reminding them of their CPR responsibilities ? and now a definite request for extension of time for defence?
anything else i should put in?
what else have they failed to do or is the info they put in overpowered by some other CPR regulation or case law we could mention?

After looking at other posts this is exactly same as other thread - Reston/Arrow/MBNA V 1vinnie. has
it is a typical batch computer letter - so what next?

Thanks
Restons reply redacted 1319.jpg

Hi asking for the Deed of Assignment is a waste of time it's the contract between creditor and debt purchaser and is confidential and commercially sensitive.

CPR 31.14 is allows for inspection of documents specifically mentioned in the particulars of a claim.

nem

[time2burn]

Re: Arrow(Restons) Credit Card Claim - think statute barred

Hi nemisis45 - quick reply

1. deed of assignment- that may be, but they mention assignment in POC so should they produce some paperwork on this at least?
2. still no paperwork at all- esp the contract
3. also no reply to my initial CCA req which was sent 3 days before CPR31.14 req - so the 12 days for that runs out on 25th
4. this seems to be common Restons & Arrow stuff looking at forum- also Reston/Arrow Global thread had same reply
5, so what is my 2nd Notice/letter in reply to their stalling tactics ?
6. Also sent Statute barred Limitation Act 19080 Notice on 15th- still no reply- if they don't reply my understanding is claim is unenforceable- they have not proved the dates within last 6yrs
7. Also as mentioned in thread - letter from Sainsurys- 'Debt written off, no longer pursuing you' - should i now mention this or wait nearer time (i.e. if they don't resound to CPR31 and CCA requests?

This is 1st draft wording to my 2nd req under CPR31.14 - any help would be great


NOTICE for Request for documents mentioned in a statement of case under CPR 31.14

Thank you for your response to my request for disclosure of documents mentioned in your statement of case under CPR 31.14.

I am afraid I must disagree with your assumptions in your draft reply, as already preempted in my initial Notice to you, which you obviously ignored, and just gave a ‘standard’ response.

I am unable to lodge my defence and/or counterclaim at this moment as I have no information regarding the alleged debt. If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing and state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition I require a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence, of which you have initially not agreed to. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.
You must provide the requested docs as per CPR.
Do not make assumptions about what i may or may not have, provide the requested evidence for your claim.

If you are still unwilling to comply with my request for specific disclosure please confirm your refusal, and I will consider entering an application to the court to obtain such.
In accordance with CPR 31.15(c) I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 7 days.

Yours sincerely