Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

**FlamingParrot** · 28th November 2013, 13:01:PM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

1. I never defaulted, so are the banks allowed to sell on a debt when an arrangement has been made and token payments being made?

Yes, debts can, and often are, sold when reduced payments are made. When a debt is sold, the banks writes it off as a loss for tax purposes, the DCA pays a small amount (often around 10%) to the bank and they call it a day.

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

Since I have been with Cabot and token payments were being made, I have NEVER since being with them received a statement on this account also I have NEVER missed a payment
as it is via Standing Order from the bank, and that's how I pay all my creditors so I have proof of payments.

Then out of the blue on the 11th April 2013, I had a letter from FIRE (Financial Investigations and Recoveries (Europe) Ltd.

It was a letter stating they wanted ALL the outstanding balance which is now £10,393.44? So I guess they have added on their bit too.

Sounds like they've been adding interest all along!

Did your creditors agree to freeze interest through the CAB?

**FlamingParrot** · 28th November 2013, 13:08:PM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

What I am more fed up with is, if they have added their bit on, I have never had statements on this account since 2008, I don't know if FIRE added their charge also Cabots

FIRE is Cabot's in-house DCA, all part of the same group. You could send a SAR to Cabot, which should yield all historical data, including statements of account.

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

But I don't want to rock the boat in case they want more money of me. I am paying £5 a month since 2008 and the figure is going up not down and yes interest is frozen as the figure would be much higher?

I reckon I am owing now £993.44 and not £10,393.44?

I would also be inclined to hit them with a CCA request, as this is such an old account, they probably won't be able to obtain anything, and the account would be unenforceable if that was the case. :bounce: :thumb:

CCA request letter below. It should be sent recorded delivery with a PO for £1 and signed using a computer font rather than your real signature. They have 14 days to respond. :thumb:

Dear Sirs,

Account or Reference No.:

I hereby formally request a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement, pursuant to s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974).I require you to provide me with a true copy, or reconstituted copy of the credit agreement relating to any account you deem to be mine, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide. I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit (12 + 2 days).

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties. Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b), 6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

In line with recent OFT Guidance (issued Oct 2010) surrounding Unenforceability, I presume you're aware that the OFT has stipulated that 'sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements'. This simply means that under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

a copy of their agreement
copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
get a court judgment against the debtor

So, in line with the OFT Guidance, and the Consumer Credit Act, please find attached my £1 payment, which is the statutory fee - note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

Yours faithfully,

**FlamingParrot** · 28th November 2013, 13:11:PM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Originally posted by FlamingParrot View Post

FIRE is Cabot's in-house DCA, all part of the same group. You could send a SAR to Cabot, which should yield all historical data, including statements of account.

Below is a SAR letter, which should be sent recorded delivery with a cheque or PO for £10 to cover the maximum fee. They have 40 calendar days to respond.

Dear Sirs

Ref: xxxxxxxx

Subject Access Request - S.7 Data Protection Act 1998

Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which, in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or printouts of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memos, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, copies of stored telephone conversations, internal and external emails; any other information held on all types of media in any relevant filing system. If you have disclosed any information to a third party (with or without my express permission), will you please include details of this in your reply, along with notes of any legal action passed or pending (to include a true copy of default notices, court orders and the like).

If you store any of the older records on microfiche, please be aware that the Information Commissioner deems this to be a relevant filing system under the Act. As such, any microfiche data must be sent to me in fully legible and comprehensible form.

Where any information that you provide includes any charges, for example returned payments, late payment fees, and so forth, would you please advise your breakdown of actual costs (liquidated damages) incurred for each charge, and the Term or Condition on which you rely upon to claim such a charge. I also require that you forward, within the above mentioned time scale, a true copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10.00 to access ALL data held by you about myself. You have 40 days in which to comply with this request.

Yours faithfully,

**jules1966** · 29th November 2013, 02:57:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Flaming Parrot,

First and foremost Thank you ever so much, it has been years since I have had to deal with any of these and CAB dealt with most of it for me.

Looks like I am in need of a fast track refresher as I know things have changed since all this started for me and my family.

Ok, yes all interest was supposed to have been frozen at the time, looks like I will have to get back in touch with CAB to make sure it was them whom dealt with the freezing of the interest as I know I managed to get some done myself at that time (before I went to CAB). I am thinking some of it is interest from the beginning yet the rest is Cabot adding their bit and the initial mess up with Fire and they have added their bit too.

The last time I did a SAR was in 2005/6 for the bank charges.

So I will get straight onto it. But with my luck they will have every file on this known to man :tinysmile_aha_t:

What I will say now is.....All these debts are from around 2001 onwards, so are you telling me that they will all be unenforceable if they don't have or can not provide me with a CCA for each debt outstanding? IF so (thinking ahead) I will be able to get all these debts written off even after making token payments after all this time?

Debts were around £60,000-00, CAB got a load written off for me way back then and outstanding balance after paying loads off is approx. £18,000-00 left to present date.
So as you see we have done well to get this far and paid a few off as well. But still a long way to go. lol

So tomorrow its a CCA going out with £1 as stated and a SAR for £10. an try and ring CAB. If this works the money I am paying out now will be worth it (speculate to accumulate as they say).

Thank You ever so much for now, Wish me luck and I will be in touch once I have had a reply.

Kindest of Regards
Jules x

**jules1966** · 29th November 2013, 03:29:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Hi Again,

Letters done ready to go. Yet one question?

When sending the CCA and SAR do I have to provide a signature or can it be done electronically?

Jules x

**jules1966** · 29th November 2013, 09:12:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Morning,

Been looking through paperwork and it looks like CAB did freeze the interest with Cabot as they did will all other debts back then. Yet I found another interesting bit of info.
Prior to Cabot buying this debt off Halifax. Halifax instructed Blair Oliver and Scott to deal with it in the first place. I am assuming they did not sell it to them but BOS where just acting on Halifax's behalf until the time came when Halifax sold the debt to Cabot.

Furthermore all the other debts we had back then changed hands so many times from one DCA to another, there would be no way of the having CCA's for every single one, yet my main one is the one mentioned above and I will be dealing with this one first before I embark on the others.

Yes I have been up most of the night yet again hunting through large amounts of paperwork. Thank Heavens I filed most of it into prospective years, so at least I have some idea of where to look first lol.

Jules x

**FlamingParrot** · 29th November 2013, 11:54:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

The last time I did a SAR was in 2005/6 for the bank charges.

So I will get straight onto it. But with my luck they will have every file on this known to man :tinysmile_aha_t:

What I will say now is.....All these debts are from around 2001 onwards, so are you telling me that they will all be unenforceable if they don't have or can not provide me with a CCA for each debt outstanding?

If they can't provide you with a proper agreement for each debt then yes, they would be unenforceable. :bounce:

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

IF so (thinking ahead) I will be able to get all these debts written off even after making token payments after all this time?

Not quite, unenforceable debts are not written off, however, you may decide to stop the token payments that are keeping them alive indefinitely :sad:

to allow them to go statute barred after 6 years with no payment or written acknowledgment. :thumb:

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

Hi Again,

Letters done ready to go. Yet one question?

When sending the CCA and SAR do I have to provide a signature or can it be done electronically?

Do it electronically, using a computer font, not your real signature. :thumb:

**FlamingParrot** · 29th November 2013, 11:57:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

Morning,

Been looking through paperwork and it looks like CAB did freeze the interest with Cabot as they did will all other debts back then. Yet I found another interesting bit of info.
Prior to Cabot buying this debt off Halifax. Halifax instructed Blair Oliver and Scott to deal with it in the first place. I am assuming they did not sell it to them but BOS where just acting on Halifax's behalf until the time came when Halifax sold the debt to Cabot.

Blair, Oliver and Scott are part of the Halifax/BOS Group.

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

Furthermore all the other debts we had back then changed hands so many times from one DCA to another, there would be no way of the having CCA's for every single one, yet my main one is the one mentioned above and I will be dealing with this one first before I embark on the others.

Regardless of who owns it or what DCA is chasing you, when you send a CCA request, the DCA will always have to go back to the original lender to obtain the paperwork, they wouldn't have acquired it with the debt.

**jules1966** · 3rd December 2013, 00:56:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Hi and Evening

OMG I have just found out something else and its my own fault for not paying attention.

I have just been looking through all my paperwork from 2004 regarding my then debts.

I have found a letter from Legal & Trade telling me the debt was assigned to Aktiv Kapital yet no date of transfer just the date on the letter which is the 20th July 2004.

I have looked up on my online bank account to find I am still paying Legal & Trade and I have been for the past 9 1/2 year !!!!!!!!!!!

Not one of them have written to me to tell me that I am making a mistake in still paying them.

So they currently owe me 9 1/2 years, gutted its only £1 a month plus interest.

I don't even know if this company is still active?

Also does anyone have a current correct phone number for them?

Regards

Jules

**FlamingParrot** · 3rd December 2013, 09:56:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Presumably it refers to Legal & Trade Collections in Preston, Lancs. I'd never heard of them but found this: http://www.thetimenow.com/united_kin...ns_ltd-1217593

Legal & Trade Collections Ltd.

Phone* 0907 018 0025
*Calls cost £1 per minute. Connection number by Maloussi valid until 09:40. Requires bill-payer's permission. Helpline: 0203 195 3446

Address
Legal & Trade House
33-34 Winckley Square
Preston, PR1 3EL

Although still showing as active, according to this website http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00...ontact-details they are not trading as such. The accounts for the last five years report just zero: http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00...ncial-accounts

The only company director is John Norman Ricketts, who also happens to be a director of Iqor Services Ltd, a better known DCA: http://companycheck.co.uk/director/9...ORMAN-RICKETTS

Companies House shows IQOR RECOVERY SERVICES LIMITED as a previous name for Legal & Trade: http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//compdetails I would be inclined to think they are part of Iqor: http://www.iqor.com/

I once had a calculation done for £2.80/month for 16 years + 8% interest, it came up to a staggering £1,400! :scared: £1/month for 9 years won't be quite as much as that but still a sizable sum. :wof: My calculation was for a sort of PPI but you get the picture.

If it was me, I'd stop those payments.

**FlamingParrot** · 3rd December 2013, 12:03:PM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Is this post also related to this issue?

Originally posted by jules1966 View Post

Im having the similar problem too. Not sure if this debt is belonging to me or not grrrrr

Looks Like I need to send an SAR and in that request a copy of the CCA and all the paperwork also WHO THE ACCOUNT ACTUALLY BELONGS TOO?

Called Mr Grear on the Phone. One I am female and two I have never heard of a Mr Grear. I have a typical welsh name!

Jules

You should have received a notice of assignment. From what you say above, you received one in 2004, saying the account was assigned to Aktiv Capital. A SAR will usually only yield historical data for the past 6 years, although there is no law that stipulates that, most banks will only send statements for the past 6 years, the assignment in 2004 probably won't be included in any SAR. A CCA request should produce a copy of your agreement regardless of how long ago it was entered into, it should also produce a statement of account. You'd be better off sending just the CCA request to AK and see if they can produce anything. Given the age of the account, probably not, in which case the account will be unenforceable and you could stop your £1 tokens to let it go SBd. :thumb:

**jules1966** · 3rd December 2013, 12:59:PM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Just got off the Phone to Halifax.

"I took out £8,000.00 (an unknown unsecured personal loan) with the Halifax many years ago. "

The Update is the Loan was taken out in October 1997. Way earlier than I originally thought also they added that due to the time lapse they hold NO RECORDS of the CCA
whatsoever. They have also awarded me £150 for wrong information as they duped me on the mortgage/loan.

They also stated that if I find the original valuation, I will be able to prove the loan should have been added to the mortgage and not an unsecured loan.

The upshot of this is I was lied to it was our 1st house that we bought and didn't know any better and they took advantage. Time to hunt the documentation to prove them wrong.

Now time to sort out the DCA's Phew hard work but worth it.

Jules

**jules1966** · 21st December 2013, 01:07:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Hey Evening,
Update.......Been in touch with Colleys the original valuation people for my home. Their records only go back to 2002 on their computer systems :tinysmile_hmm_t2:, yet they have enlightened me that all the time a mortgage is still active, banks have to keep all original documentation until the mortgage is paid in full. No I did not know this until Colley's so kindly informed me to that effect.

Anyway the upshot is, Colley have now had to get in touch with the bank to get a copy of the original valuation. I know for fact my home was worth a lot more than Halifax stated at that time. What I have found out is we signed for the loan on the 6th Oct 1997 and the valuation was apparently done on the 22nd October 1997? So it looks like Halifax have given us the loan before they actually received the information on the value of the house?

I am now awaiting a DSAR from HBOS, the only downer is I applied on my own and did not think to place my hubby's details on it too, yes I know I'm a drip (and totally my fault), but we are only human after all. So I have to now sent off a request for my hubby's DSAR as they can not do anything without his say so apparently. Yet as I have paid to get the info on one of us, they may as well add Hubby to it and only pay once and get it done all in one go rather than wait forever for it to turn up.

So far so good. I just pray I get the original Valuation (without alterations)........My hubby and I know for fact how much our home was valued at back in October 1997, yet Halifax are stating different.......That day is something we wont ever forget. Lets just say jumping up and down in the hallway like school kids. And for that very reason we know how much our home was worth back then.

**jules1966** · 21st December 2013, 02:24:AM

Re: Cabot/Morgans/Halifax

Evening Again/ or should I say morning Again ;-)

I have been bouncing all around my living room, Please read below.

Further update from research

Please advise as all my so called debts are all pre 2006 and no one can provide a CCA (as explained due to time lapse) does this put me under the "OLD" regulations i.e. pre 2006?

What is a Unenforceable Credit Agreement?

An Unenforceable Credit Agreement or UCA is basically a way of legally proving that your credit card or loan agreement is invalid or ‘unenforceable’.

What do we mean by unenforceable?

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 was set in place to regulate unsecured lending below the value of £25,000. In section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information or otherwise called ‘prescribed terms’. If any of these prescribed terms are missing then the credit agreement is deemed unenforceable. Please note that it only applies to credit agreements taken out before April 2007.
Why is it only for agreements taken before April 2007?

In 2006 a new version of the Consumer Credit Act was introduced and section 127 was removed, superseding the 1974 version. April 2007 is the ceiling date for Unenforceable Credit Agreements as this is the start of the financial year meaning only credit agreements taken out before this date can be challenged.
So this is the ‘debt loophole’ I have been hearing about?

It is not considered a 'loophole' as such, it is merely using the law as its set out to be used. Section 127 was put in place to ensure all the lenders covered all the terms of lending, some agreements were improperley drafted and some of the prescribed terms were missed out. This is not the fault of the consumer, but the fault of the lender.
There are still a lot of credit agreements still in circulation which are legally invalid and also agreements that have been lost or destroyed by lenders, which also makes them unable to legally enforce the terms of the agreement. The debt between you and your lender needs to be bound by an agreement. If there is no agreement then there is effectively no debt!

Cabot/Morgans/Halifax