CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

[millymollymoo]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Please forgive me for some of my assumptions. I'm afraid its because the last time I claimed against the Credit Card companys was a good 3 years ago and therefore some of my letters are a bit outdated

The ultimate goal is the Default Removal which is very hard to do. We are not really that concerned about the money, it was just to claim the charges/ppi and restitutionary damages which we would be entitled to and I may have been abit over zealous with the calculations, but another site suggested the CI and that is why I claimed it.

The claim seemed to be that if we got the CI back we would of completely covered the alleged debt and would be grounds to warrant the removal of the Default.

We have discussed this and would of course be willing to negiotiate a settlement but we want the default removal ultimately agreed .

We are concerned that entering any negitiations with the DCA will then be admission that we believe the alleged debt is what is owed and thus starting the time clock again, along with harrassment from when they turn the offer down, which is what we expect them to do.

Not sure really need to think about it

Milly X

[Paul210]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

We have discussed this and would of course be willing to negiotiate a settlement but we want the default removal ultimately agreed .

We are concerned that entering any negitiations with the DCA will then be admission that we believe the alleged debt is what is owed and thus starting the time clock again, along with harrassment from when they turn the offer down, which is what we expect them to do.

Fair point, to get around this you need to make sure any letters you send are marked "without prejudice" at the top, this means you are not admitting liability, merely attempting to resolve the situation, also make it clear in your letters (should you decide to go down the settlement route) that your dispute of the level debt is the main reason for not paying in full, this way you cover yourself on that angle whilst leaving them in no doubt that you beleive them to be wrong and that any offer is subject to their prior agreement to remove record of default with CRA's.

[Bill-K]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Thanks for your help here, Paul - much appreciated. It looks as though the best route is to negotiate a settlement with Citi and/or the DCA, as opposed to making this a claim for a specific amount.

Yeah, I guess unenforceability is a long shot - not least because in reclaiming PPI and charges, or negotiating a settlement, you are effectively acknowledging the debt. So, looking at it from Paul's angle, the DCA has bought the debt for a reduced amount and needs to get that amount back at the very least. Whatever they make above that is their profit from the purchase of the debt.

So - if they can get a respectable sum from you in settlement, on condition that the default marker is removed, then you both walk away happy. So - if you are to negotiate, then I guess it would be best to start from the highest position you can, and be prepared to negotiate downwards to a point of agreement. In that case, perhaps starting with the claims for Contractual rate interest is the best way, but be prepared to back down from this quite considerably.

I have found an error in your original spreadsheet for the penalty charges, in that the totals were incorrect, so the claim is actually larger than originally calculated.

Using 8% Statutory rate interest, and claiming back the Debited account interest on the PPI and charges, the claim totals £2257.82 as at today's date.

Using 29.99% Contractual rate compound interest, the claim totals £6043.02 as at today's date.

Perhaps if you were to consider meeting at a half-way point of £4000, then that might seem a reasonable expectation. I'll send you the figures separately, Milly.

[Kafka]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

MMM

I took Citi to court just over a year ago trying to get the full charges back and contractual interest. I ended up fighting a barrister with an unhelpful judge that the barrister knew how to work.

I only got the amounts over £12 back and 8%, but I did slap a CCJ on Citi and get some charges back over 6 years. Also prevented them trying to claim costs for having rejected an offer higher than the eventual settlement.

I published the full details here
Penalty Charges Forum

Be warned that they will go to court, but at least now you know how they will play this and I didn't have that info. I'm not aware of anyone else that has fought them since me though. Good luck with it.

[cappo]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

any news di?

[millymollymoo]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Thanks for your help here, Paul - much appreciated. It looks as though the best route is to negotiate a settlement with Citi and/or the DCA, as opposed to making this a claim for a specific amount.

Yeah, I guess unenforceability is a long shot - not least because in reclaiming PPI and charges, or negotiating a settlement, you are effectively acknowledging the debt. So, looking at it from Paul's angle, the DCA has bought the debt for a reduced amount and needs to get that amount back at the very least. Whatever they make above that is their profit from the purchase of the debt.

So - if they can get a respectable sum from you in settlement, on condition that the default marker is removed, then you both walk away happy. So - if you are to negotiate, then I guess it would be best to start from the highest position you can, and be prepared to negotiate downwards to a point of agreement. In that case, perhaps starting with the claims for Contractual rate interest is the best way, but be prepared to back down from this quite considerably.

I have found an error in your original spreadsheet for the penalty charges, in that the totals were incorrect, so the claim is actually larger than originally calculated.

Using 8% Statutory rate interest, and claiming back the Debited account interest on the PPI and charges, the claim totals £2257.82 as at today's date.

Using 29.99% Contractual rate compound interest, the claim totals £6043.02 as at today's date.

Perhaps if you were to consider meeting at a half-way point of £4000, then that might seem a reasonable expectation. I'll send you the figures separately, Milly.

Thank you for your hard work here Bill :tinysmile_grin_t:

The halfway point you mentioned would clear the debt lol Even the stat 8% is a lot towards it.

Okay how to go about this? Do I need to send the new spreadys to Cabot and Citicard and how should I go about that as Cabot have ignored our letter sent recorded delivery and are up on their deadline. I am at LBA stage with Citi.

That letter sent to Cabot also contained the CCA request with fee (see first post).

Milly X
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

MMM

I took Citi to court just over a year ago trying to get the full charges back and contractual interest. I ended up fighting a barrister with an unhelpful judge that the barrister knew how to work.

I only got the amounts over £12 back and 8%, but I did slap a CCJ on Citi and get some charges back over 6 years. Also prevented them trying to claim costs for having rejected an offer higher than the eventual settlement.

I published the full details here
Penalty Charges Forum

Be warned that they will go to court, but at least now you know how they will play this and I didn't have that info. I'm not aware of anyone else that has fought them since me though. Good luck with it.

Hi Kafta
I will have a good read. Thank you for your help and forewarning . :tinysmile_grin_t:

Milly X

[Paul210]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

The halfway point you mentioned would clear the debt lol Even the stat 8% is a lot towards it.

Okay how to go about this? Do I need to send the new spreadys to Cabot and Citicard and how should I go about that as Cabot have ignored our letter sent recorded delivery and are up on their deadline. I am at LBA stage with Citi.

Cabot will ignore letters they dont know how to/dont want to deal with, send them a letter which encompasses and an offer and I bet they come back to you..I wouldnt bother writing to Citi directly as they have sold the debt on, however it wouldnt do any harm to copy them in.

I would go along the lines of this:

I refer to my letters dated . . and . detailing a schedule of charges to the account I beleive to be unfair, as well as requests for information under the Consumer Credit Act and the Data Protection Act.

I note that you have not responded to any of these, in some cases in breach of stautory deadlines and as such take your lack of response to mean that you do not dispute my counter claim.

As such I attatch again a list of the charges levied to the account which I do not agree with and in an effort to resolve this matter would suggest as follows.

You state a balance on the account of X
I detail in the attached calculations a counter claim of Y
As a result I am willing to offer the sum of (difference between X & Y) as full and final settlement of the account. Further to this, the offer is conditional upon any reference to the disputed default being removed from files with the various credit reference agencies which you/Citi financial use and the account being shown as settled.

Please confirm in writing your agreement with this offer. Please note that should we not be able to resolve this matter amicably then I fully reserve my right and in fact will have little choice but to refer the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service and/or proceed via Litigation without further notice.

Yours sinc etc etc etc

This covers you for making an offer and states legal action may be commenced so covers as LBA. as ever make sure you head it up without prejudice, you may also want to include something along the lines that your calcs only work interest @ 8% and that in the event of a formal claim being made you would take legal advice as to whether this could be increased to the contractual rate which would increase your counter claim to extinguish the debt completely, Bill could prob help you draft this bit uo as they were his calcs.

Good Luck.

[millymollymoo]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Cabot will ignore letters they dont know how to/dont want to deal with, send them a letter which encompasses and an offer and I bet they come back to you..I wouldnt bother writing to Citi directly as they have sold the debt on, however it wouldnt do any harm to copy them in.

I would go along the lines of this:

I refer to my letters dated . . and . detailing a schedule of charges to the account I beleive to be unfair, as well as requests for information under the Consumer Credit Act and the Data Protection Act.

I note that you have not responded to any of these, in some cases in breach of stautory deadlines and as such take your lack of response to mean that you do not dispute my counter claim.

As such I attatch again a list of the charges levied to the account which I do not agree with and in an effort to resolve this matter would suggest as follows.

You state a balance on the account of X
I detail in the attached calculations a counter claim of Y
As a result I am willing to offer the sum of (difference between X & Y) as full and final settlement of the account. Further to this, the offer is conditional upon any reference to the disputed default being removed from files with the various credit reference agencies which you/Citi financial use and the account being shown as settled.

Please confirm in writing your agreement with this offer. Please note that should we not be able to resolve this matter amicably then I fully reserve my right and in fact will have little choice but to refer the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service and/or proceed via Litigation without further notice.

Yours sinc etc etc etc

This covers you for making an offer and states legal action may be commenced so covers as LBA. as ever make sure you head it up without prejudice, you may also want to include something along the lines that your calcs only work interest @ 8% and that in the event of a formal claim being made you would take legal advice as to whether this could be increased to the contractual rate which would increase your counter claim to extinguish the debt completely, Bill could prob help you draft this bit uo as they were his calcs.

Good Luck.

Hi Paul. Thankyou so much:tinysmile_grin_t: Your extremely helpful advice and help drafting the letter is very much appreciated:tinysmile_grin_t:

Milly X

[Bill-K]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Excellent stuff from Paul, I reckon.

I see Paul recommends that you negotiate with Cabot, as they are the current 'owners' of the debt - but I think you may still need to get your DSAR data from Citi, and probably your CCA agreement copy, too, as it is Citi who are in breach of the DPA & CCA, I believe.

If you want to get the debt completely written off, then it looks like you would have to convince Cabot that they have no chance of pursuing it, and/or that you have every chance of winning the PPI and penalties claims with contractual interest (at 50% of the contractual rate). If you do this, though, then there is nothing for Cabot to negotiate - so they will probably be very unco-operative.

As Paul says, we need to offer them something they can walk away with, so I guess you need to decide how much to start with. I don't know how much they would need in order to break even on the purchase of the debt, but maybe you could start the ball-game with £500, and expect them to ask for more.

I'll send you some spreadies with the different interest rates shown - and if you need me to explain the calculations, then I'll be glad to, of course, Milly.

[charitynjw]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Hi all, sorry to jump in but had a quick look at the way this is going and thought I'd offer a few thoughts.

it seems there are 2 options here, either attempt to go down the CCA74 non compliance route and argue debt unenforceable, is a risky plan as even if you can defend any actions by Cabot on this basis after McGuffickvRBS case they still have the option to note the balance and default with CRA's so doesnt acheive your original aim of removing default from cred file.

the other option (and best IMHO) if to go down the route of negotiating a settlement of the account, factors in your favour include debatable levels of charges and ppi made to the account, failure of citi to comply with DPA requests and failure of CITI and Cabot to comply with CCA requests. Further the fact the account is with a DCA means that the expected return on this will be reduced anyway. I would definately make an offer to clear the account with a lump sum/monthly payment or combination of the 2 (assuming your in a financial position to do so). This means you can save some money on the outstanding balance, win a slight moral victory by reducing the amount you pay them and recover something by way of reduction due to charges/ppi.

If going down the settlement route there are a few very basic rules to remember -
1. never make a payment until you have confirmation of the terms of the agreeement in writing, too many peaople make an agreement over the phone only for the DCA to not recall the conversation and conveniently be unable to recover a call recording, always get in writing!.
2. When making an offer always state the offer is in "full and final settlement" of the debt, this stops them taking your payment and then reneging in the deal and chasing for the balance.
3. make sure you list all the terms you want in your offer i.e. removal of reference to debt with CRA's, its no good trying to do get this after the event as no guarauntee they'll play ball.
4. even when you have an agreement, pay by cheque and in the covering letter state that by cashing the cheque they are in agreement with whatever terms you made, this way there is a basic contract and they cant renege on the deal.

theres plenty of people on here with experience of doing this so feel free to draft up letters and get them checked on here, if you want me to look over a draft/assist then pm me.

You can always use a third party to issue the final cheque - this way the DCA is entering into a separate & binding contract with the 3rd party.

[Kafka]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Just for info...
When I took Citi to court the account had been properly assigned to a DCA years earlier. The DCA then managed to get a CCJ against me, just before I found the forums and could have prevented it.
I therefore chose to get the charges back before considering tackling the CCJ. I went for Citi and thought that they would pass the buck to the DCA, but they did not and chose to fight the charges even though the account had long been sold on.

[Angry Cat]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

I still think that you need to make a fresh SAR (DSIR) to Citi.

And, keep your previous SAR request documents on file;
the ICO will need to see these (proof) if and when you log your complaint against Citi for non-compliance of your DPA legal request.

[Angry Cat]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

Please, be careful do NOT acknowledge the alleged debt with CarpBot, or their new owners Anacap (Apex Debt Management).

These corps are not interested in your PPI claim, they just want the money back from the portfolio's in which they invested.

You need to establish, as to whether the alleged debt was legally assigned to CarpBot:
documentary evidence required.

Personally, I would not head up a letter: Without Prejudice.
By doing that you are precluding any future judge from reading your words and assessing same.

Far better to head up your letters:
I do not acknowledge any debt to your company, agents, affilliates or, otherwise.

Or, this letter is not an affirmation of any debt that you claim to be owed.
I am simply requesting information under section 7 of the DPA 1998:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisati...OCEEDINGS.ashx

and;
am mindful of the Courts Overriding Objective:
http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/611.cfm

[TUTTSI]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

AC what does a DSIR stand for?

I still think that you need to make a fresh SAR (DSIR) to Citi.

And, keep your previous SAR request documents on file;
the ICO will need to see these (proof) if and when you log your complaint against Citi for non-compliance of your DPA legal request.

[Angry Cat]

Re: CITICARD PPI/ PENALTY CHARGES and CABOT TOO!!!

AC what does a DSIR stand for?

Data Subject Information Request.

ICO:
Data subject (Data Protection Act) This is the living individual who is the subject of the personal information (data).