**WON!** British Gas boiler installation 7 yr battle - 2 yrs into ongoing court claim

[wealdstoner]

I am currently awaiting court dates, hopefully to conclude this 2 year running county court claim battle against British Gas Installation Services.

My reason for reaching out for help on this forum is for direction\assistance in finding suitable legal representation to help over the final hurdle.

I issued the case myself back in 2013, and plugged away without legal representation until things got a bit tricky and a work colleague of my partner stated his father may be able to offer some advice, given he was a barrister(non practicing). I met a few times with the Barrister and he put me in touch with an independent Solicitor. This timely intervention, helped me past British Gas's attempt to have the case struck out and also allowed for an amendment to the POC to be accepted by the court.

The Solicitor that was representing me worked with a Practice owned and run by a single individual - Unfortunately the Practice owner passed away due to ill health in Dec 2014. The practice has since closed and to cut the long story short, I am again without legal representation approaching the final stages of this court case.

If there is anyone out there who knows of a firm of solicitors preferably with a track record of tackling British Gas or just a desire for revenge against this particular organisation, please advise of contact details.

** I have omitted the details of the case, because there possibly is too much info in 5 years of boiler misery followed by 2 years of court misery to include in 1st post. In a nutshell, the buggers took 2 attempts and 18 months to complete an installation which was sabotaged to cause damage to property further down the line. After acknowledging liability, then refusing to settle for damage repairs or boiler replacement which eventually died a premature leaky death!!!

I am more than happy to provide further details, evidence in form of pictures and correspondence if required

[wales01man]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Why would anyone Sabotage your Boiler to fail at a later date?

Seems a very strange accusation to make is there proof of this.

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

There is proof. The Magna Clean filter (magnetic filter) was stolen and not installed in original installation. As a consequence of this the first boiler install bearly survived 3 months and had to be replaced after multiple failures. The Magnaclean filter was identified as missing 18 months after 1st install and retro-fitted.

Roughly 3 years into this saga, the wall boiler was installed on started to show signs of damp, soon followed by leaking. Further investigation by British Gas revealed that the plastic condensate outflow pipe had been sawn through in half and then stuck into the wall. This is an inexpensive plastic pipe measuring approximately 1 foot. If genuinely cut at wrong point, then cheap and inexpensive to simply replace. This can only have been done deliberately to cause damage further down the line.

5 years into this nightmare when 2 boiler packed up completely - after 4.5 odd years of intermittently heating radiators. An independent corgi registered engineer was contacted and he came to replace British Gas installation. He advised that a powerflush had not been carried out on previous installation.

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Here are a couple of pics of "cut pipe" and some of damage caused - damage is over a wider area than shown in this image.

[meellis]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Being in the industry I am interested in this case and how and who has the evidence that BG were at fault. I personally would be the last to defend them because they generally use outside contractors and it is all priced and carried out with the least finesse. There is no legal requirement to install a magnaclean or any other type of magnetic filter, magnaclean is a brand, so the only problem with it being missing is whether it was estimated and charged for in the first place. Again I install these filters because they are worthwhile and modern boilers will fail due to contaminated systems but it isn't a legal requirement. The benchmark log book that should have been completed by the installer would detail about whether the system had been flushed but as far as I am aware it will affect the validity of any manufacturers warranty so if they have completed the log book saying it has been flushed you will need to be sure you can prove it hasn't. Even though a powerflush is the preferred method it isn't the only one so again it will come down to whether you have been charged for something that hasn't been done more than whether it was the cause of the problems. Be careful about the leak, I have had quite a few leaks on that particular make and model of boiler, usually on a joint between a rubber pipe and plastic elbow. What I am saying is there might be a difference between problems from the installation and general manufacturers problems, was the boiler maintained and the benchmark book completed on all services in the 5 year period it is an important legal document. The condensate pipe has been cut but can you prove when and by whom? Sorry to be obtuse about this but you will have to make sure all your accusations will hold up and are directed at the right people or it could prove to be expensive, if it hasn't already been.

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Whether or not British gas use outside contractors is irrelevant... the boiler installation contract was taken out with them, and it is their responsibility to employ someone capable and qualified to do a proper job - seeing as we are dealing with a gas appliance.

The Magnaclean and PowerFlush were quoted and priced for in the quotation accepted from British Gas.

Regardless of what the Benchmark log book states, the reality may be completely different. Going on the information provided by the independent engineer that came round to fit a boiler properly, the radiator from which the system would be drained, situated by the front door, had not been opened since the outlet valve had been painted over. He showed me the valve before opening and proceeded to demonstrate how a system is flushed. I was present for the 4 days when British Gas engineers installed the very first system - I did not see British Gas engineers perform the same task or any task that looked like a PowerFlush.

Only British Gas employees worked on the system in the 5 year period, so they can only be responsible. In fact, the first engineer that did the 1st install is the culprit, as he also stole the Magnaclean to go use on a private Job.

British Gas appointed a surveyor to assess the damage, and liability has been accepted by them - this fact is not in dispute.

The impasse which led to me going to court happened because British Gas refused to let em see the survey report, claiming it was a "privileged document". All they were interested in was sending someone to patch up the damage to which I refused and stated I would like to appoint repairs myself. I had to obtain a separate survey report and then commission other people to rectify the mess left by British Gas.

TBH... the merits of my case is not what I am seeking assistance with. I am looking for representation, so i do not get tripped up by court nuances and loose the case that way.

[meellis]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Glad you are on the ball, personally I dislike BG and have seen a lot of what they have been up to and being a gas safe engineer myself I don't like being judged alongside them. When they were a national company they were second to none and there apprenticeship was the best in the business, they wrote the book. A lot of people still believe they are the same company not the huge money making private organisation they are. The reason I was questioning the merits of your case is so that anyone reading could decide if it was something they felt they could offer anything to in the way of representation. I have been involved in the after affects of installs like yours but know that my knowledge and understanding could be doubted in a court of law when you are up against someone with more letters after their name and certainly couldn't afford to spend the time being a witness for a customer and all that entails so getting indisputable evidence is important and their acceptance of liability. To me its a different legal argument for not having the goods supplied that you have paid for to the argument that these were the cause of the failure of the system. One is a consumer based sale of goods argument the other is a technical engineering argument which will be best made by as highest qualified engineer you can get. Just a technical point a powerflush is utilising a high pressure pump to circulate chemicals around the system and force the dirt out through a hose attached to the powerflushing pump hence you don't need to drain the system you are replacing contaminated water with clean water naturally through the process. You would have known if it was carried out by the sheer scale of the process but just because a drain off hasn't been used doesn't mean it hasn't been done. As for the benchmark document, it is a legal document so if it states that something has been done when it can be proved it hasn't then it is another nail in the coffin and being able to prove that you have done all you can to maintain the system is important. Some of the things I am trying to point out to you are some of the nuances that could come up in court because they will argue all of these points and more.

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Just a technical point a powerflush is utilising a high pressure pump to circulate chemicals around the system and force the dirt out through a hose attached to the powerflushing pump hence you don't need to drain the system you are replacing contaminated water with clean water naturally through the process. You would have known if it was carried out by the sheer scale of the process but just because a drain off hasn't been used doesn't mean it hasn't been done. As for the benchmark document, it is a legal document so if it states that something has been done when it can be proved it hasn't then it is another nail in the coffin and being able to prove that you have done all you can to maintain the system is important. Some of the things I am trying to point out to you are some of the nuances that could come up in court because they will argue all of these points and more.

Precisely! I never witnessed the British Gas engineer perform such a task - how would most home owners know precisely what a powerflush is anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one end of this hose pipe should be coming off the radiator?

But these are all minor points. The damage caused was directly linked to the cut pipe, which in my view can only have been at worst - deliberate, at best damn right negligent!

The 'technical engineering argument' is merely to show that I was entitled to have the 2nd boiler replaced after discovery of missing magnaclean filter - 15 months after its install, given that all the issues that continued from the 1st install carried on with the second.

Another minor but irritating factor is that British Gas also upsold me on the boiler, recommending a 30cxi when all i need and have been using for last 2 years without any issue whatsoever is the 24cx model.

[wales01man]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

You are taking on the might of BG and a Solicitor would be advisable Companies would rather spend many thousands defending that admit anything losing to them is just another thing but they will go all out to win and try to do it at your expense.

[mystery1]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

It's not about what you know, it's about what you can prove on the balance of probability.

M1

[meellis]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Ok, might seem like minor points to you but they become major when you are trying to prove fault. You are right that most homeowners do not know what a powerflush is there are probably installers who don't as well. The thing is all the hoses attach to the powerflush machine so there isn't necessarily a need to connect an hose to the radiator. I am not saying there was no need on your install, every job is different, I am just pointing out there will be a legal argument against your reasoning. The powerflush is to clean out all the debris and oxides within the system so they will not contaminate the new boiler hence the requirement for a flush. The filter is for collecting debris and oxides before they enter the boiler but the theory is there should be none present because the flush has removed them hence no legal requirement to install a filter. BG like most of us have found it better to still install filters, there reasoning is probably profit based others would argue on technicalities. For most of us including a £100-120 filter on a boiler change that some would be estimating £1400 for is difficult, a 30cxi with flue would be around £1000 to us. BG have scale on their side so they dictate how much they buy the boilers and materials for. The newer boilers require a greater flow of water through them to keep them cool so any blockages will cause major problems especially because the waterways through are smaller and hence block easier. As for the upselling of the boiler, I would generally sell someone a 30kw combination boiler because of the slightly higher hot water production, still not great but better for baths than the 24kw version. As for the cut pipe I understand the damage caused by the mildly acidic condensate water, the pipe has definetly been cut by someone you just need to prove who. What have BG accepted liability for? If it is everything then you are only going to be arguing over figures and why you didn't except their offer, if it was only for the non-supply of goods then you will have the harder argument of proving that the non-supply was the cause of the problems.

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

????

[wealdstoner]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

????

The thing is all the hoses attach to the powerflush machine so there isn't necessarily a need to connect an hose to the radiator. I am not saying there was no need on your install, every job is different, I am just pointing out there will be a legal argument against your reasoning. The powerflush is to clean out all the debris and oxides within the system so they will not contaminate the new boiler hence the requirement for a flush.

Surely some hose must be attached to the radiators or the boiler... in order to be able to flush out these contaminates?!?!

The filter is for collecting debris and oxides before they enter the boiler but the theory is there should be none present because the flush has removed them hence no legal requirement to install a filter. BG like most of us have found it better to still install filters, there reasoning is probably profit based others would argue on technicalities.

The BG engineer that discovered the missing Magnaclean and retro fitted it days later demonstrated its efficiency to me. After fitting it on he explained that it should be checked regularly and emptied of the contaminates collected. After the installation, he let it run for 30 odd minutes and then stopped the system to demonstrate the cleaning process. There was at least half a regular jam jar's worth of particulates removed. ever since that first clean, the most that has come out of the filter to date is less than a tea spoons worth.

As stated earlier, the legal requirement is that it was quoted for and paid for and should have been installed to offer both subsequently damaged boilers the protection they desperately needed. The ONLY reason I replaced the original Potterton back boiler wasn't because it had stopped working - my partner couldn't handle the marching band that paraded around the house when it was switched on, owing to the sludge\particulates causing the pipes to knock!

Chances are that a filter would have stopped the band marching, but who cares, British Gas need to sell and install boilers whether they are needed or not.

As for the upselling of the boiler, I would generally sell someone a 30kw combination boiler because of the slightly higher hot water production, still not great but better for baths than the 24kw version.

Why would you upsell someone something they do not need based upon your personal preference?

2 people in a terrace home with 3 x large 3 x small radiators; who prefer showering to having a bath DO NOT need a 30cx. Even the manufacturers description of the type of household that requires a 30cx does not represent my household in number of people, radiators or hot water usage. In the past 2 years since having the 24cx installed, I have not once given the hotwater or heating any consideration whatsoever - it works perfectly and is more than suitable even when my 2 kids come down to stay!!!

As for the cut pipe I understand the damage caused by the mildly acidic condensate water, the pipe has definetly been cut by someone you just need to prove who.

As stated earlier, the only engineers that visited my home and worked on the boilers were BG engineers. Unless BG are going to try and accuse me of tampering with the boiler - which to date they haven't, then why does the burden of proof rest with me? The judge isn't expecting me to show him a time lapsed video between first installation and cut pipe discovery to prove conclusively that BG engineers installed the cut pipe!!

What have BG accepted liability for? If it is everything then you are only going to be arguing over figures and why you didn't except their offer, if it was only for the non-supply of goods then you will have the harder argument of proving that the non-supply was the cause of the problems.

Their surveyors have accepted liability of damages caused. They refuse to accept that omission of a magnaclean filter would have detrimental effects on the boiler to warrant a change or cause the boiler to fail completely, but contrary to this stance they are happy to sell and promote these filters as something that would protect end extend the life of a boiler. They can't have it both ways.


Interestingly. Through this 5 year debacle, while desperately searching for help, I contacted the Gas Safe Register, who attended my property in conjunction with British Gas when they cam to investigate the cause of the damage. My concern was that the wall on which boiler was installed was so damaged that the boiler could slip down from its wall fittings owing to its weight and thereby cause a gas leak. To my surprise the gentleman from the register informed me his remit only stretched as far as inspecting the gas connections!!

[wales01man]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

Correct for Gas safe they do not concern themselves with any other aspect of boilers Cookers ETC

[Carnelian]

Re: British Gas boiler installation 7 year battle - 2 years into ongoing court claim

I am currently awaiting court dates, hopefully to conclude this 2 year running county court claim battle against British Gas Installation Services.

My reason for reaching out for help on this forum is for direction\assistance in finding suitable legal representation to help over the final hurdle.

I issued the case myself back in 2013, and plugged away without legal representation until things got a bit tricky and a work colleague of my partner stated his father may be able to offer some advice, given he was a barrister(non practicing). I met a few times with the Barrister and he put me in touch with an independent Solicitor. This timely intervention, helped me past British Gas's attempt to have the case struck out and also allowed for an amendment to the POC to be accepted by the court.

The Solicitor that was representing me worked with a Practice owned and run by a single individual - Unfortunately the Practice owner passed away due to ill health in Dec 2014. The practice has since closed and to cut the long story short, I am again without legal representation approaching the final stages of this court case.

If there is anyone out there who knows of a firm of solicitors preferably with a track record of tackling British Gas or just a desire for revenge against this particular organisation, please advise of contact details.

** I have omitted the details of the case, because there possibly is too much info in 5 years of boiler misery followed by 2 years of court misery to include in 1st post. In a nutshell, the buggers took 2 attempts and 18 months to complete an installation which was sabotaged to cause damage to property further down the line. After acknowledging liability, then refusing to settle for damage repairs or boiler replacement which eventually died a premature leaky death!!!

I am more than happy to provide further details, evidence in form of pictures and correspondence if required

Hi, Good luck, have you thought about appointing a barrister yourself through the direct access system? Sounds like you have most things worked out and your case knowledge is very hard to reproduce.

http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/instruc...public-access/ or google and see what you find