Different advice on issuing a court money claim, and I can't go forward...

[Davvo]

Hello

I have high anxiety not being able to move forward and start a money claim case.
I've had a couple of differing opinions through some free legal advice, and whilst I'm incredibly appreciative of time given to me, many weeks later I'm no further forward with issuing the claim.

There's many issues and this is a long read with lots to unpick. Sorry.

Parts in bold are where I desperately need advice please.



A used car was purchased from an independent dealer March this year. Their company is a limited type.
I have followed all court protocol prior to trying to start a money claim online (the car rejection letter and pre-court action letter was sent via CAB template to include relevant consumer law, and ADR etc)

The dealer wouldn't take the car back, downplayed serious issues and was then was unresponsive, that is until they received the pre court action letter, which triggered them to respond.

They then said they would take the car back, and would refund me after the car was back with them, adding THEY WILL NOT reimburse any costs under any circumstances - I had sent them receipts for a follow up MOT, and independent inspection report and more. They knew DVSA had inspected the car too and failed it for many major defects.

The car though un-drivable, due to where I live, has to be parked through no option on the main road, so I still have to cover tax and insurance etc.
I explained all the costs fully to the trader, and none were / are unnecessary.

As the dealers response was unsatisfactory, to still try to resolve matters, and beyond the timescale to respond to the pre court action letter, I voluntarily wrote again offering the trader further time to reconsider, so that court action was not necessary for either of us. That was seven weeks ago, and the trader has not responded since then.

The Consumer Helpline advised that because the traders' offer was unsatisfactory, that I do not need to do any more, and can go ahead and make a full claim for the car and costs with the court.

Since then a legal advisor who said they have dealt with similar, recommended I do not let the car be returned for a refund to come at a later date, stating he has had same situation clients, where they lost the car as well as their money.
Because of the trader's behaviour so far, it is not unreasonable to suspect this could happen to me too.
Now I have been told I should have let the dealer take the car, and took that gamble.


I have also had differing opinions on who I should sue from legal advisors - I've been grateful for help, but it has left me so confused on processes, hence not being able to start the claim...
The dealer took a £50 deposit by credit card, but upon car collection I was told I had to pay by bank transfer to the dealers other business (a similar named vehicle repair business)
One legal advisor has said I should do multiple claims, by suing the trader personally, the used car business, the dealers’ business partner at the repair business, and the salesperson who dealt with me who signed all paperwork. I was shocked at this.

Then double checking this later with another legal advisor, they said that is incorrect advice, I should only sue the business where I purchased the car, not the trader personally, and that the other business where the money went to, is neither here nor there for a court claim.


To further complicate matters, the dealer moved their car sale premises last summer. Their current address where I bought the car from and where they have signed for my 24 hr tracked letters, is not the registered address with Companies House - their old address is still stated there.

Because understandably court admin staff only look at the defendants address, if I follow correct procedure and use the Companies House registered address, the defendant will then not receive court documents. This would mean the claim going to default, but would be dishonest on my part, as I know that is not the dealers address.
On the other hand, if I state the true known traders' address and not the Companies House registered address, then I am not following court procedure.

The position now, is a legal advisor is saying I must use the Companies House address, but then today for some clarification, I called MCOL Helpline and an agent said although they cannot fully advise, in my shoes they would use the address where I know the traders' business really is.

Late last night I found and tried to get to grips with Justice. Gov 'Courts Procedure Rules' under 'PART 6 SERVICE OF DOCUMENTS'
Point 6.9 and info going way down underneath does discuss the problem when claiming against a business in my circumstances, but I am not good with the jargon used.

'Service of the claim form where the defendant does not give an address at which the defendant may be served'
Place of service:
Any other company or corporation -
Any place within the jurisdiction where the corporation carries on its activities; or any place of business of the company within the jurisdiction.

Here is the link: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...les/part06#6.9

I can't work out how I would I approach this. Would I let the courts send to what I know is the wrong address, then after no response from the defendant, would the courts contact me to allow me to explain the situation fully, then make an adjustment to address under the application stated under section 6.15?



The car purchase invoice is a complete mess making matters worse. There are two business addresses on it.
When handed it, the credit card receipt had been £50 stapled onto the one corner. Lifting that up later on, the dealers repair business is stated where 99.9% of the payment went, but on the other side of the page, very faintly, the traders old address where I have never been, can be seen under their logo.
Bottom of the invoice sheet, there is info on where to send the payment (sort code and account number)
(I can add a pic with editing to hide some details if that helps)


I so want to start this claim as my anxiety is through the roof. Added up over hours, I have spent many days phoning, emailing, reading up on how to get this mess sorted out.
An advisor told me a Section 75 claim would apply due to the CC £50 deposit, but I wouldn't receive any of the costs I've paid out, which I am still incurring.

Please can someone help with some parts of this? I understand it is complicated, but I'll go with the general opinion.

Thank you


p.s
I did loan money to buy a replacement car not long ago - I only got to drive that car twice before it had to be rejected back to dealer, and went through a nightmare to get my money back on that one. I'm only stating this, as I sought help here for that car, but these are two separate cases.

[des8]

The legal advisor who advised against allowing the trader to take the car prior to making a refund is incorrect.
The Consumer Rights Act 2015 sec 20
(7)From the time when the right is exercised—
(a)the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund, subject to subsection (18), and
(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.

A court may take a dim view of a claimant who acts contrary to the law.
Note you do not have to deliver it, but only make it available

Does the invoice include the company name, registered address and register number?
Does the company name on the invoice include the word "Limited" or "Ltd"?
The companies registered address may be used to serve claim which is what I would use if it appears on the invoice
If they have changed their registered address but not notified Company House, they are in breach of the regulations.
They probably won't then receive court papers and you could obtain a default judgment

The credit card company are Jointly and severally liable for the full purchase price of the vehicle (so put your claim in to them as it is better to get most of your monies back than none at all if your court claim fails)

[Davvo]

The legal advisor who advised against allowing the trader to take the car prior to making a refund is incorrect.
The Consumer Rights Act 2015 sec 20
(7)From the time when the right is exercised—
(a)the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund, subject to subsection (18), and
(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.

A court may take a dim view of a claimant who acts contrary to the law.
Note you do not have to deliver it, but only make it available

Does the invoice include the company name, registered address and register number?
Does the company name on the invoice include the word "Limited" or "Ltd"?
The companies registered address may be used to serve claim which is what I would use if it appears on the invoice
If they have changed their registered address but not notified Company House, they are in breach of the regulations.
They probably won't then receive court papers and you could obtain a default judgment

The credit card company are Jointly and severally liable for the full purchase price of the vehicle (so put your claim in to them as it is better to get most of your monies back than none at all if your court claim fails)

Oh I feel physically sick now...

It was The Consumer Helpline that gave that me that piece of advice. I recorded the call. Not for sinister reasons, but because I have been given so much different info, that I couldn't keep track of anything anymore, and needed to be able to go back and use calls as a reference. Would I have any comeback for wrong advice? They must record calls too.

I presented the whole case over to a different legal person only two weeks ago and they didn't pick up on this :-(



The car is basically abandoned, and not been driven since DVSA did their inspection. I'd give anything for it to be gone, as I'm annoying the neighbours - parking spaces are at a premium here.


Does the invoice include the company name, registered address and register number?
The invoice has a VAT reg number, but no register number.

Does the company name on the invoice include the word "Limited" or "Ltd"?
The other dealers other business address (not where I purchased the car from) is the under the stapled CC receipt. That says LTD.

The companies registered address may be used to serve claim which is what I would use if it appears on the invoice
Both addresses on the invoice are not where I purchased the car from, nor are they the addresses on the dealers website (nor Auto Trader)
One is feint, on the right side under their logo, and that is the old premises from last summer. The other on the left being the dealers' other business.

I'm so sorry, it's so difficult to explain.
I am happy to send you a copy of the invoice if that would help?
I've copied out as best as I can making up details on paper as this is the best way to explain it (sorry the image is dreadful)




The Trading Standards officer did tell me that this dealer sells cars for other people, and takes a quarter cut.
The Repair Centre as seen on the left side, is jointly owned with another person. Sales monies (or at least mine) are filtered into the other business.
I am not sure how often this dealer does this. They have always 30-40 cars up for sale at any one time.


If they have changed their registered address but not notified Company House, they are in breach of the regulations.
I did call Companies House a few weeks back - I don't know what I expected to achieve, other than to see if there was some kind of error their end. The call handler didn't say much, other than traders have several opportunities through their reminders to make changes, and mentioned this is illegal practice.

They probably won't then receive court papers and you could obtain a default judgment.
Some of the last advice received was to use the registered address from Companies House, then "send a copy to the trader at the genuine address" - I won't have a copy of anything as such using MCOL, and I don't really understand how their advice will be helpful, as I can't control the court docs that will go out afterwards.

The credit card company are Jointly and severally liable for the full purchase price of the vehicle (so put your claim in to them as it is better to get most of your monies back than none at all if your court claim fails
If I run a Section 75 claim same time, won't the credit card company refuse the claim for the same as above?

Though I didn't actually say to the trader he couldn't collect the car, he just stopped communicating when I said I would take matters to court, as he turned down all costs reimbursement. After that, I sent another letter giving him some extra time to consider and respond. That was 7 weeks ago and he hasn't responded at all.


Thank you for your help.

[des8]

Have you checked the VAT registration number? https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-vat-number

[Pezza54]

HI Davvo

I have read through your thread but I could not find the following info which would be helpful for forum users to provide advice:

What was the date of purchase, what is the age of the car and how much did you pay for it?

When did you first write to the dealer to reject the car?

What is the total value of your claim?

Des8 is right. You should also make a S75 claim to your ccc. Your S75 claim should be treated the same way as a Statement of Case. Write in date order what happened, what was said, what was written in letters and emails and provide all information on the second payment by bank transfer. There is no charge for a S75 claim. Drafting this claim now will help if and when you start a court claim.

[Davvo]

Have you checked the VAT registration number? https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-vat-number

Yes thanks, the VAT number for the secondary 'Repair' business is correct.

There are no details at all on the page for the showroom premises / business where I bought the car, only their old address.

[Davvo]

HI Davvo

I have read through your thread but I could not find the following info which would be helpful for forum users to provide advice:

What was the date of purchase, what is the age of the car and how much did you pay for it?

When did you first write to the dealer to reject the car?

What is the total value of your claim?

Des8 is right. You should also make a S75 claim to your ccc. Your S75 claim should be treated the same way as a Statement of Case. Write in date order what happened, what was said, what was written in letters and emails and provide all information on the second payment by bank transfer. There is no charge for a S75 claim. Drafting this claim now will help if and when you start a court claim.

Hello.

"I have followed all court protocol prior to trying to start a money claim online (the car rejection letter and pre-court action letter was sent via CAB template to include relevant consumer law, and ADR etc)"

Day 29 after purchase - the rejection letter was received / signed for. Much communication was sent prior to that by email, from day 3 after purchase.

17 days after rejection letter was received, I sent 'pre-court action letter'

2 days after dealer signed for PCA letter and responded with unsatisfactory response, I voluntarily sent another letter to try for resolution outside of court.

The claim is over 5k and under 10k.


I used CAB template letters.

Rejection letter included:

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 requires you to supply goods that are fit for purpose, as described, and of satisfactory quality. The vehicle is clearly not roadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.

Please reply with your comments and intentions within 14 days.



Pre-Court action letter included:

I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

I confirm that I would be agreeable to mediation, and would consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) in order to avoid the need for this matter to be resolved by the courts.
I invite you to put forward any proposals in this regard.
In closing, I would draw your attention to paragraphs 13 - 16 of the Practice Direction which gives the courts the power to impose sanctions on the parties if they fail to comply with the direction, including failing to respond to this letter before claim.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice.

[Davvo]

Does anyone know if I am allowed to post an image of the payment invoice for the car, as long as all identifying info is removed with editing?

It's impossible to explain otherwise :-(

Thanks

[des8]

Post away, but really only need to redact your personal information.
No reason not to name "Fred's Repair Centre"

[Davvo]

Post away, but really only need to redact your personal information.
No reason not to name "Fred's Repair Centre"

Ah thanks! I'd already done it all - it took me ages as I'm not good at these things, but I did learn how to fiddle about with the Paint app!

If anything doesn't make sense with my four added text boxes , please shout up :-)


I'm really nervous about posting the invoice, because I'm being careful not to expose the trader, but I have to cover my back (I'm not alone; others have claimed they went to Trading Standards and took court action against this dealer, but on he goes..)

The upgraded warranty instead of a price reduction was null and void from day one.
The part that says the brakes were repaired for MOT on same day of collection was a lie - the dealers' repair centre made such a hash of the brakes, that the car was sold as a ticking time bomb death trap, with a fake MOT from his associates. This dealers' trading practices are a whole other story...

Anyhow, any help you can give I'd be so grateful for. I'm still unsure on who exactly I should sue, and then there's the registered address problem.


Thanks again

[des8]

Is that the only documentation you have?

No reason why you should not name the company .... we may already be aware of them!

On the little info you have given I would suggest if you initiate a claim you name both the repair centre and the trade centre

[Davvo]

Is that the only documentation you have?

No reason why you should not name the company .... we may already be aware of them!

On the little info you have given I would suggest if you initiate a claim you name both the repair centre and the trade centre

Yes, that's all I was given (apart from the MOT sheet, the warranty booklet and it's contract, and the fake service sheet)


I've done a search on here, and the dealer / company has not been mentioned before.

The local Trading Standards officer who stated his friendship / admiration towards the trader, also made comments that gave me reason to consider there may be repercussions for me. Going to court will be a risk, put but I'm not backing down, I just have to not publicly mention them by name at this point.



The basics are:

I viewed and test drove the car at the Trade centre. I had to return the car after 1/3 mile on test drive due to brakes (screaming alarm in car and warning on dash: STOP - BRAKING SYSTEM FAULT) I have a pic of that as I wanted to show the salesperson.
There was a central locking issue also. (Both noted on invoice as rectified)
I was told both were easy fixes and would be made right for the sale. The car's MOT and service would be arranged after I left a deposit, so I paid £50 by credit card.

All brake pads and discs were changed at the dealers' own Repair centre, and it was the co-owner of the Repair centre who physically changed the brakes, then issued the car with a fake service sheet.
MOT was supposedly carried out same day through an associates garage.

The MOT cert was a clear pass with no advisories.


I returned same day and paid for the car as above, as to my belief, the car was now roadworthy, and serviced.

I got home, parked up, and realised on day three (the first next use of the car) that it should have been an MOT fail (I checked the MOT testers guide online, and info stated at least 3 major fails, and 2 minor fails)
Also the central locking issue hadn't been rectified as per invoice, but that was the least of my worries.


I arranged for an post-purchase engineer inspection, and another MOT, as I had put in for a DVSA appeal, but due to lack of response, then industrial action by them, I had to get something done myself.

The MOT was as guessed, a huge fail:

Repair immediately (major defects):

• Central Rear Seat belt not functioning as intended (7.1.2 (c))
• Windscreen wiper does not clear the windscreen effectively Both (3.4 (b) (ii))
• Offside Front Side repeater not working (4.4.1 (a) (ii))
• Nearside Rear Stop lamp(s) not working (4.3.1 (a) (ii))
• Nearside Rear Brake hose excessively twisted, also brake pipe excessively bent going into caliper (1.1.12 (b) (ii))

Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):

• Central Rear Upper Hi level brake light not working.
• Nearside Front Anti-roll bar linkage pin or bush worn but not resulting in excessive movement slight play in D bush area. (5.3.4 (a) (i))

Re the brakes issue highlighted above... The MOT tester explained that the issue could not happen itself and that damage was caused by brute force and carelessness upon changing the brake pads and discs, and that upon complete failure of either component, which was just a matter of time, the brake fluid would flow out and the car would have instant and complete brake loss.
I only have the verbal statement, and do not have this in writing.
I checked online in car repair / mechanic forums, and knowledgeable people stated the same as the MOT tester.


The engineers report stated the car was sold unroadworthy, not durable / fit for purpose etc. and also proved the service which was part of the sale was faked - Car battery not holding charge / indicator bulb not even present / no visual check of brakes / engine oil had not been changed / the oil filter had not been replaced / no water in windscreen washer etc etc.
The service sheet was a joke to be honest - all it said was oil was changed and fluids checked / topped up, but even those weren't done.


There is much more, a large list of serious and lesser serious matters with the car, all noted by the report and my pics / videos.


DVSA after much hard work on my part did finally inspect the car, but gave some different fails to the MOT tester, but agreed with others. They still gave the car 3 major fails, one minor, and two advisories.


The dealer in his last response, said I have now 'made things difficult for myself by getting the car MOT'd'
(though earlier he wrote that he was happy for the car to be re-MOT'd, but that I must remember that MOT testers opinions are subjective)
Also in his last response stating he would not entertain my costs, was because if he takes the car back, he will have to have work done on the car, incurring expense to resell it!

There are now 3 MOT fails on .Gov online from 9th March to 24th April. No one will want it, so it'll go to auction.
The seller will take a huge financial loss, which is not my problem, but that's his reasoning for not reimbursing my costs.



Aside from my complaint, and the judge will not entertain the info as part of my case, the dealer allows cars to be test driven with MOT fails on major fails. I found this out, by checking reg's online for cars up for sale on Auto Trader. One was even refused an MOT, as deemed too dangerous to test, yet was advertised and available on the forecourt for test drive.

The Trading Standards officer told me the cars there are shipped in 2-3 times a week from auctions and they are only purchased online the dealer is sat at a desk, and are not physically viewed.
He said the dealer is too busy to check cars before they are put on the forecourt, and laughed, saying he isn't out to kill anyone, he's just complacent adding "all used car dealers are all like it"...

(I'm only raising some TS comments in case someone says I should report the trader - that's all been done. They aren't interested and cover the dealer every step of the way through their long term friendly relationship as mentioned)
All I got was "I'll go and have a word. He's a good bloke"

[des8]

Well I would be initiating a court claim for a full refund plus all costs incurred.
The claim would name both entities named on invoice.

I would also be making a Sec 75 claim against the Credit card issuer for full refund plus all costs incurred

Supplying an unroadworthy vehicle is an offence under the Road traffic Act 1988 sec75
Penalty is at Level 5 on the standard scale (£5000)
Have you made a complaint to the police?

[Davvo]

I went here today, as it was an easier read than in the justice.gov pages: https://assets.publishing.service.go...user-guide.pdf

Relevant bit:




Thankfully more simplified to understand, I thought the 3rd point above meant I was good to state the dealers true current address, then I considered the wording...

Could the dealers limited company be termed as an 'organisation'? If it is, all is well.


I then followed the blue link given, which takes me back where I'd read before: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...les/part06#6.9



I've copied the relevant section from the link, and it *seems?* to say I can use the dealers' current address:

Service of the claim form where before service the defendant gives an address at which the defendant may be served.docx

[des8]

For the limited company I would use the registered address, for the other entity (mr dodgy t/a ** repair centre) I would use the address at which you know he is trading.