Small Claims Court

[Tinkerbell.001]

Hi my mum purchased a car from a dealer. Prior to purchase we had a mechanic look over it from a mechanical perspective, he advised that the door needed new castors and it needed a service. it was sold as a disability vehicle which was for my mother to put her mobilty scooter in and use independently. she part ext her car with the deal. Now when she came to use the vehicle the hoist cut out repeadly. the ramp was to high to drive the scooter into the vehicle and therefore we realised pretty quick it was not fit for the purpose intended so asked the dealer for a refund and to have the other car back. he has been very unpleasant and we have took advice of trading standards and sent letters right up to letter b4 action. I have dealt with all this on my mother behalf because she is recently widowed (which the dealer new) and disabled and doesn't cope well with the stress so the dealer was corresponding with me. however since the last letter he has sent her a letter saying that he is taking her to the county court because the car she part exchanged is faulty and it has cost him money, he has also said she wont get a refund and that she will lose thousands in this letter. It is unnecessarily threatening, and he also says he will be out of the country til April 2020 and to deal with someone else that he names. Please can anyone advise me on this? and what to do? all we wanted to do was use our consumer rights of a refund in 30 days and take the car back but he refuses and has been really quite nasty about it. thank you

[MIKE770]

jaguar1954

[2222]

Hi my mum purchased a car from a dealer. Prior to purchase we had a mechanic look over it from a mechanical perspective, he advised that the door needed new castors and it needed a service. it was sold as a disability vehicle which was for my mother to put her mobilty scooter in and use independently. she part ext her car with the deal. Now when she came to use the vehicle the hoist cut out repeadly. the ramp was to high to drive the scooter into the vehicle and therefore we realised pretty quick it was not fit for the purpose intended so asked the dealer for a refund and to have the other car back. he has been very unpleasant and we have took advice of trading standards and sent letters right up to letter b4 action. I have dealt with all this on my mother behalf because she is recently widowed (which the dealer new) and disabled and doesn't cope well with the stress so the dealer was corresponding with me. however since the last letter he has sent her a letter saying that he is taking her to the county court because the car she part exchanged is faulty and it has cost him money, he has also said she wont get a refund and that she will lose thousands in this letter. It is unnecessarily threatening, and he also says he will be out of the country til April 2020 and to deal with someone else that he names. Please can anyone advise me on this? and what to do? all we wanted to do was use our consumer rights of a refund in 30 days and take the car back but he refuses and has been really quite nasty about it. thank you

It certainly sounds like the hoist was faulty. It would generally be disproportionate to reject the car if the hoist can be repaired. Did you ask the dealer to repair it?

Could you explain the bit about the ramp being too high, please. I can't quite imagine that. Did you discuss at all with the dealer which scooter your mum has?

[des8]

From your account it seems the vehicle was unsatisfactory and not fit for purpose.

It was bought as a disability vehicle, but can't be used as such due to the faulty hoist (not fit for purpose)
CRA 2015 short term right to reject does not give trader right to repair unless consumer requests it..

His threat of county court and costing thousands is a lot of hogwash.
If he was to try court he would lose as a trader buying from an individual is expected to know his trade.
Cost thousands....not in small claims.

You sent a LBA, so now initiate a court claim before he goes on his hols (don't suppose it was a limited company your mother dealt with?)

[2222]

Hold on a sec. Did you send a letter rejecting the car on account of the faulty hoist within the first 30 days?

I am still trying to understand what's wrong with the ramp. Is it generally faulty, or are you saying it's incorrect for mum's particular scooter?

DES may well be right that you have a strong case, but it would be good to get the details of the timeframe sorted out.

[des8]

To reject the goods it is not necessary to send letter (altho' paper trial always useful)

CRA 2015 sec 20:
(5)The right [to remedy] is exercised if the consumer indicates to the trader that the consumer is rejecting the goods and treating the contract as at an end.

(6)The indication may be something the consumer says or does, but it must be clear enough to be understood by the trader.

[Tinkerbell.001]

Hi Thank you. Ok well it was a bit more complicated in the end. we did discuss that it was a mobility scooter and a large one, however this is out word against his. Also my mother arranged to see the car prior to purchase and the dealer offered to drive it to her..at about 50 miles distance, it was advertised as having 4 seats,arrived with three. we test drove it to a mechanic who looked at the engine and gave the body work a cursory once over. one of the sliding doors didn't work well and the mechanic said the castors had gone. so all this was discussed but my mum was so desperate for her independence she bought it a little rashly. We said about the castors on the door, the missing chair and that it needed a service and he dropped £600 off the price, and took my mums car as a trade in at £800 i think.

Now the next day we tried to get the scooter into the car and realised that it was not a one person job which we had discussed with him was what she needed for independence. The hoist cut out and there is no cut out in the car floor so the ramp goes too high to drive the mobility scooter in. we have never had a mobility car or anything before so didn't know about this. Any 24 hours later i asked the trader if we could return the car because it really isn't suitable for the need intended to give my mother her independence. He said no, he would not refund but would sell the vehicle if we wished. I did also offer to take back the trade in. as he said no i though i would see if we could trade it in at a different mobility store for a vehicle more fitted to what she needs. They took one look at the car said that the side had suffered a significant impact and had, had body work done and showed us splits in the metal work we had not seen. they said the car was not safe in that condition and wouldn't take it. so i then spoke to trading standards and sent a letter outlining what was wrong with the car and again asking if we could please have a refund. this was followed bu lots of emails from the trader to me, as many as 10 in a day basically saying no and why. So i followed the process advised by trading standards and he has since sent a email to me saying "We are just issuing a county court judgement against your mother for £3600 plus vat . As we have been misled regarding the Px Lk53nnx burns more oil than fuel , needs new engine I’m abroad until March 2020 in Singapore. My colleague mr Terence .... Is now dealing with this matter. Please write to him at ... motor group ...football club . Docs will arrive next few days. He has sought legal advice from lawgistics our motor trade solicitors ".

so now we have a car that is no good, he has a car that was perfect when sold we have no idea why he is saying this, and can he do this? My mother is so upset by the whole thing and i really don't know what rights she has now.

oh and he sent a letter on the outside it had hand written "we are taking you to county court", then inside was another handwritten letter full of spelling errors and factual inaccuracy's stating in 12 points why they would taking mum to court why she will lose and how much it will end up costing her, they also added a £300 delivery fee which had never been mentioned before,

sorry its so long winded

[Tinkerbell.001]

From your account it seems the vehicle was unsatisfactory and not fit for purpose.

It was bought as a disability vehicle, but can't be used as such due to the faulty hoist (not fit for purpose)
CRA 2015 short term right to reject does not give trader right to repair unless consumer requests it..

His threat of county court and costing thousands is a lot of hogwash.
If he was to try court he would lose as a trader buying from an individual is expected to know his trade.
Cost thousands....not in small claims.

You sent a LBA, so now initiate a court claim before he goes on his hols (don't suppose it was a limited company your mother dealt with?)

Hi yes he is a limited company and online only been trading since July with no accounts registered. also dissolved previous business,, not looking great is it?

[Tinkerbell.001]

Hold on a sec. Did you send a letter rejecting the car on account of the faulty hoist within the first 30 days?

I am still trying to understand what's wrong with the ramp. Is it generally faulty, or are you saying it's incorrect for mum's particular scooter?

DES may well be right that you have a strong case, but it would be good to get the details of the timeframe sorted out.

I sent the letter within 7 days and followed the process to the word using standard templates from trading standards and it is all logged with them. I also have all his unpleasant emails saved.

[2222]

Hi Thank you. Ok well it was a bit more complicated in the end. we did discuss that it was a mobility scooter and a large one, however this is out word against his. Also my mother arranged to see the car prior to purchase and the dealer offered to drive it to her..at about 50 miles distance, it was advertised as having 4 seats,arrived with three. we test drove it to a mechanic who looked at the engine and gave the body work a cursory once over. one of the sliding doors didn't work well and the mechanic said the castors had gone. so all this was discussed but my mum was so desperate for her independence she bought it a little rashly. We said about the castors on the door, the missing chair and that it needed a service and he dropped £600 off the price, and took my mums car as a trade in at £800 i think.

Now the next day we tried to get the scooter into the car and realised that it was not a one person job which we had discussed with him was what she needed for independence. The hoist cut out and there is no cut out in the car floor so the ramp goes too high to drive the mobility scooter in. we have never had a mobility car or anything before so didn't know about this. Any 24 hours later i asked the trader if we could return the car because it really isn't suitable for the need intended to give my mother her independence. He said no, he would not refund but would sell the vehicle if we wished. I did also offer to take back the trade in. as he said no i though i would see if we could trade it in at a different mobility store for a vehicle more fitted to what she needs. They took one look at the car said that the side had suffered a significant impact and had, had body work done and showed us splits in the metal work we had not seen. they said the car was not safe in that condition and wouldn't take it. so i then spoke to trading standards and sent a letter outlining what was wrong with the car and again asking if we could please have a refund. this was followed bu lots of emails from the trader to me, as many as 10 in a day basically saying no and why. So i followed the process advised by trading standards and he has since sent a email to me saying "We are just issuing a county court judgement against your mother for £3600 plus vat . As we have been misled regarding the Px Lk53nnx burns more oil than fuel , needs new engine I’m abroad until March 2020 in Singapore. My colleague mr Terence .... Is now dealing with this matter. Please write to him at ... motor group ...football club . Docs will arrive next few days. He has sought legal advice from lawgistics our motor trade solicitors ".

so now we have a car that is no good, he has a car that was perfect when sold we have no idea why he is saying this, and can he do this? My mother is so upset by the whole thing and i really don't know what rights she has now.

oh and he sent a letter on the outside it had hand written "we are taking you to county court", then inside was another handwritten letter full of spelling errors and factual inaccuracy's stating in 12 points why they would taking mum to court why she will lose and how much it will end up costing her, they also added a £300 delivery fee which had never been mentioned before,

sorry its so long winded

Hmmm, what an XXXXX he is. I think you can safely ignore his threats. That's all complete nonsense, but I'm not surprised that your mother is upset. He should be ashamed of himself, taking advantage of a vulnerable person like that. I am delighted that you are there to help her.

How did mum pay for this? There's no chance that your mum paid part of this, even a small amount, with credit/a credit card? If not, as it's a limited company run by a crook, I think I'd stop now. There's no sense pouring effort into a court claim that you will win but be unable to enforce, as the company will just be wound up. Sorry, but that's the unfortunate reality.

You say the car is dangerous. How dangerous, and can it be fixed? That raises two issues.

First, it's an offence to market a dangerous car. See, for example, https://www.choicequote.co.uk/news/m...ous-car-214381

What did trading standards say about that aspect?

Second, your mum presumably paid for the mechanic to look the car over. He seems to have missed a major defect with the side impact damage, and you could consider suing him. He probably has insurance.

[Tinkerbell.001]

Hmmm, what an XXXXX he is. I think you can safely ignore his threats. That's all complete nonsense, but I'm not surprised that your mother is upset. He should be ashamed of himself, taking advantage of a vulnerable person like that. I am delighted that you are there to help her.

How did mum pay for this? There's no chance that your mum paid part of this, even a small amount, with credit/a credit card? If not, as it's a limited company run by a crook, I think I'd stop now. There's no sense pouring effort into a court claim that you will win but be unable to enforce, as the company will just be wound up. Sorry, but that's the unfortunate reality.

You say the car is dangerous. How dangerous, and can it be fixed? That raises two issues.

First, it's an offence to market a dangerous car. See, for example, https://www.choicequote.co.uk/news/m...ous-car-214381

What did trading standards say about that aspect?

Second, your mum presumably paid for the mechanic to look the car over. He seems to have missed a major defect with the side impact damage, and you could consider suing him. He probably has insurance.

Really is there no hope at all? what about the threats of county court, can he do that? No she paid cheque also the mechanic is a friend who looked for free. he didn't really look at the body work as it was a 2005 vehicle and he always say cant expect much re body work of that age..so no come back there. the people at motability who wouldn't buy it said that it was dangerous because if there was an incident the door would not open. so really our only hope is to repair it and sell on? she will be so very upset as she has lost a lot of money on this. horrible man questioned her about lots of stuff too and knew she was grieving recent deaths of husband and son, sure he saw her as an easy target. I would like to sue him just to cause him aggravation and have to foreclose again even if we can't get the money back. Trading standards just said next step is small claims court. Thank you for your time in reading all that waffle.

[ostell]

He would have trouble taking you to court. As a trader he is expected to be the expert and even if the p ex car was defective (doubt that it was) then he should have found it. Your mum, as a private individual, cannot be liable for the car, unless she told some untruths. The legal maxim of "caveat emptor" (buyer beware) applies.

You can help your mother raise a claim against him in the small claims court. Depending on how long ago this was you gave rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. As said if he's trading as a limited company (have you checked this, who was the cheque made out to) then he could just dissolve the company.

If he states he was going abroad then now is the time to raise a claim. Perhaps his stand in will just file the claim form and you get a default judgement.

[ploddertom]

You say the hoist cuts out, what is the weight limit on (should hopefully have a sticker on the arm) it and what weight is the scooter you are trying to lift - if unsure then what make & model is it?

[2222]

Really is there no hope at all? what about the threats of county court, can he do that? No she paid cheque also the mechanic is a friend who looked for free. he didn't really look at the body work as it was a 2005 vehicle and he always say cant expect much re body work of that age..so no come back there. the people at motability who wouldn't buy it said that it was dangerous because if there was an incident the door would not open. so really our only hope is to repair it and sell on? she will be so very upset as she has lost a lot of money on this. horrible man questioned her about lots of stuff too and knew she was grieving recent deaths of husband and son, sure he saw her as an easy target. I would like to sue him just to cause him aggravation and have to foreclose again even if we can't get the money back. Trading standards just said next step is small claims court. Thank you for your time in reading all that waffle.

He'd be an utter fool to sue your mum, as he has no sensible prospect of success. On the other hand, sabre rattling costs him nothing.

If you sued his company, you'd probably win in court, if only over the winch. You'd get a court order that the company needs to refund you. But by then the company won't have any assets, and you'd be wasting money pursuing them. In the meantime, as you rejected the car, you can't use it, you can't repair it, and you can't sell it.

"I would like to sue him just to cause him aggravation and have to foreclose again even if we can't get the money back." The cost to the trader of winding up this company and starting a new one is very nearly nothing at all.

I think your next step is to find out what the repairs will cost, then either do those and sell the car, or sell it on as is but with a list of the known defects. You could ask the mechanic's advice on that.

I haven't seen the car, but the winch issue might just be a loose connection. Even a replacement winch might not be all that much. I'd be more concerned about what the safety repair costs. If the car can be fixed cheaply (it's 15 years old, so it doesn't have to be an immaculate job), your mother's loss might be quite limited. You can sell the car privately. You don't have to sell it to the garage.

[Tinkerbell.001]

The only other thing is we have his home address which is what he put on the DVLA seller slip however he keeps telling us that writing and correspondence should be to " .. motor group ...football club" which he then seems not to reply to so we have written to both his addresses, copy letters much to his fury!