Court order- civil enforcement ltd

[Rudi von Sternberg]

Hi,
Please help - I have now recieved a court order and particulars of claim from CEL dated 12th June from Civil Enforment ltd for outstanding debt and damages can you advise on next steps to fight them? (Please see attached)
I previously received a LBC from Wright hassall caliming I owed a debt which I disputed and asked them for a compliant LBC, they stated theirs was complient however their was no break down of debt , I have now received teh court order , I have completed the AOS and now request help for a defence
CIRCUMSTANCES
The circumstances were - there were two possible drivers at the time, we popped into a small small parking area in front of shops to buy a few groceries whilst visiting our daughter who is three hours away The car was not unoccupied as ther ewas little parking space total time wasfor 19 minutes, I cant remember any signage at the entrance.

regards,
Rudi

[EXC]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Tagging [MENTION=5553]charitynjw[/MENTION]

[charitynjw]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Hi Rudi

I can't get Attachment 25950 to work.

What was the date of issue of the PCN? (ie the date it was sent or the date on the letter, not the date of the actual parking event).
From what you suggest, you have not ID'd whoever was driving at the time?

[EXC]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

I can't get Attachment 25950 to work.

Here.

[charitynjw]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Thanks, [MENTION=332]EXC[/MENTION]

Same as the attached pdf's then (I was able to download them ok).

[Rudi von Sternberg]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Charity hi,
The date of the PCN issue was 12/10/2016. The driver would be me or my Partner. The claim form is dated 12 June I completed AOS on 20th
I previously entered the incident on the VIP forum, the LBC was from wright Hassall instructed byZZPS car parking operator CEL.
not sure if Consumer Contract regs 2013 and private parking could be used or does the fact that I dont know who was driving at the time count?
I have photos of signage attached -there is no complaint handling policy or right to cancel or info on code of conduct on signage if this helps
many thanks
Rudi

[charitynjw]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

NtK is time-barred by virtue of Schedule 4 s9(5) Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 for keeper liability.

There is no presumption in English Law that the registered keeper was the driver.
Claimant is put to strict proof to evidence the driver.
Elliot v Loakes & CPS v AJH Films do not apply.....those have failed so many times in courts throughout the country, it would be a joke to try & use them to prove keeper = driver.

Mind you, I did see one County Court case very recently (Wigan, I believe) where the Judge decided (without proof) that the keeper was the driver.
As far as I know it is being appealed.

[Rudi von Sternberg]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

They are quoting Vine v Waltham Forest London borough council (2000) and Paking v Beavis against me ,however at no time have they asked who was driving the vehicle. My 28 days are up tomorrow is the fact that I dont know who was driving leave the burden on them to prove via their camera which I presume they cant as its ANPR only?

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry have you a quick template type draft of a defence reply -or should I settle? I was hoping that the signage too doesn't comply with consumer contract regs

[charitynjw]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

In Vine there was never a dispute over whether Ms Vine was in fact the driver of the vehicle.
Beavis was a case concerning whether it was justified or not to charge (in that case) £85 for overstaying the 2hr limit. Again, not concerned in any way with driver/keeper liability.

[Rudi von Sternberg]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Charity would you agree with the below:
1 I requested a complient LBC from the claimants solicitors which would give a breakdown of the alleged debt etc this was not provided.If it had I would then have asked if they believed Iwas the driver and could they provide a picture to help identify the driver. I was not asked if I was the Driver at the time of the alleged incident
2. The claimants next step was to issue a court claim against me as I am the registered keeper of the vehicle . The vehicle is a commercial vehicle and has more than one regular driver. On the 17th Sept the vehicle was being driven in the LOndon area by two drivers to reduce driver fatigue utilising Satallaite navigation . The drivers do not know the London area and cannot recall the Greenwich area or who was driving the vehicle at the time. The Vehicle was driven with frequent change overs from approx 0500 hrs that morning.
3. It is no presumption in English law that the reigisterd keeper is the driver. It is for the claimant to provide proof of evidance of the driver . I have not been asked if I was the driver and dispute this
4. The claimant quotes that I had accepted conditions of parking and quotes Vine v Waltham Forest London Borough council (2000). This does not apply as in Vine there was never a dispute that Vine the driver.In this case the Driver is not established
5. The claimant also quotes Parking Eye Ltd V Beavis in support of their claim again this does not apply as the Beavis case was not concerned with driver/keeper liability

I would appreciate your comments as I have to submit my defence today

[charitynjw]

Re: Court order- civil enforcement ltd

Use this Henry Michael Greenslade Q.C. quote (as supplied by @mystery1)

http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...134#post738134

If it were me I'd scrub the reference to it being a commercial vehicle, as this could open a can of worms re vicarious liability.
Google CPS v AJH Films Ltd.
Just leave it at access to more than 1 driver.