Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Just wandering, would it be ok to post the witness statement on here (minus any personal details contained) as at 4 pages it might be helpful for clarification of certain aspects of to raise issues with aspects?.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

And now things have took a rather concerning turn as I've just received the following letter off IND this morning. Basically they are claiming the court (judge) ordered at the hearing on the 26th April that I had just 7 days from when they reserved there disclosure to respond and serve both them and the court with any and all evidence (and witness statement). And as I had failed to do so by yesterday to ask the court to confirm no evidence can be submitted!.

Yet I've received no such order or directions from the court in writing to state this, called the court 3 times since the hearing including yesterday to enquire about this exact issue where each time I'm told no order or fresh directions looks to have been made or filed from the hearing against the case number!.

Not to sure what was said verbally on the day as quite a bit of legal terminology with regards to the adjournment conditions etc. But have never received a new order or direction and the court confirms nothing looks to have been filed?. Any advice as I'm guessing IND have got wind on these developments of mine and trying to prevent the submission of what discredits both evidence and their witness statement.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the letter received this morning.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

I've started to compile my amended defence, evidence and arguments for my witness statement though I'd like to think that the as said bank statement evidence alone should be sufficient.

But just thought I'd upload their witness statement in case anyone might be interested in looking to see if there is any points I might have missed.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Anyone know if it's an offence or a serious offence to make false claim and justification to rely on hearsay evidence in a witness statement to try and avoid being there is person and being questioned on evidence and explaining stated issues within their witness statement?. As I realised earlier that the person who written the witness statement asks to rely on hearsay evidence as they have no personal knowledge of the conduct of the account before the claim. Yet it's not stated exactly when the person writing the witness statement did become involved.

Yet as the claim was first issued in March 2013 it can be suggested or claimed that by the author of the witness statements own words that they clearly would have become personally involved with the account and claim at a point that clearly gets mentioned in the witness statement and evidence disclosure. So should be very well placed to stand by a number of claims and evidence on a personal knowledge level that they have stated. Maybe that's why they decided not to state exactly when they became involved but just make a generalisation comment of having limited personal knowledge?.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Right, a little update on this after the above letter received from IND last Saturday that I posted about IND asserting a court order from 26th April that was never made or issued by the court, yet IND indicated existed and detailed very tight conditions and restrictions on being able to counter there disclosure and respond to it.

On Monday I called the court again regarding this letter from IND dated Friday 5th to myself and the court. The court then told me that an order has now been issued that day to say that the hearing has now been relisted and strangely to list some of what IND claimed in the letter to myself and the court days earlier!.

Now what's confusing and concerning in this fresh court order is that it's been dated as 26th April, yet not issued until 8th May!. As I've enquired to the court at least 4 times now since the hearing I need to know of any fresh directions and orders from the hearing to know where I stand and each time they confirmed no order had been issued and would likely be issued when the case gets relisted.

I've uploaded the new order received yesterday.

And today I've now had another letter from IND, again also posted to the court, to pretty much state that they have also received the new court order dated 26th April, drawn 8th May. And that it confirms what they said in their previous letter and that it confirms I can no longer serve anything to the court!.

Any advice as it looks to me like they are trying to enforce unreasonably tight restrictions from an order that may have been sent out late retrospectively to prevent me filing any evidence and defence?.

[Kati]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

tagging Diana M

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Just to say, I sent my own letter to the court yesterday (claimant to) in response to both IND's weekend letter and the more recent 1 received. And reported it that I feel it intimidation and to dissuade me from filing anything citing court orders and directions that would reject it if I were to try and file anything. As crazy to think that IND feel the time I had to file anything expired 3 days before the date on which the court issued and sent the order out!.

All sides will have had my witness statement, defence and evidence by now for a couple of days, even if having to have rushed it somewhat over the weekend due to the IND letter and efforts.

In basic terms:

Proof of false (ok inconsistencies) evidence in their evidence and witness statement over the bank statement. Which in itself is very serious matter.

Proof of the signature on the agreement not being an exact match, as whilst similar at the start, by the end of the signature line it is completely different to how I sign my name.

Indications in the witness statement that they recognised the S77 & CPR 31.14 requests from March 2013, yet said they only complied (nothing received with letter) in April 2015. In clear breach of request requirements.

Witness statement author relying on hearsay evidence as they only became involved after the claim was issued and so has no pefsonal knowledge before this. Yet the claim was issued in 2013 and so clearly would have first hand knowledge as a lot of issues and "evidence" relates to after 2013.

Never pre declared their intentions to rely on hearsay evidence and filed everything last minute and late to give an unreasonable short period to do anything anyway prior to the original hearing.

Missing evidence and timeline info IND chose not to mention or disclose in their witness statement.

Probably other things to, but would be somewhat surprised in light of my defence, witness statement and evidence if they still try to go to hearing the end of the month!. As the sanctions for submitting false evidence alone can be very serious I gather?.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Been the cab over a little advice over options since getting the bank statement last week and regarding the latest IND letters and court order. Cab called the court and got an update of sorts.

The court seemed to confirm\indicate I did in fact only have until last Friday, 5th to file any and all evidence and response!. This is despite having called the courts multiple times in that first week for clarification as a number of dates and timescales were mentioned, but being told no fresh orders and directions have been issued by the court!. Seems the court is suggesting the order and directions were given verbally and that they can use what was said verbally before they sent the order out on Monday!. But many things were said at the hearing and a number of issues around timescales which is why I've been calling them for verification!.

Yet funny enough, the order suggests or gives the claimant 3 weeks to provide something they had already compiled and gathered together, yet I'm expected to have fully responded and compiled my response within just 1 week!. So god knows if the evidence will be allowed, will just have to wait and see on the day now.

The court has at east got and looked at my response and evidence anyway. They told cab that I've made a very serious allegation against the claimant in respects to their evidence. Not a direct allegation, the word I used was discrepancies in my witness statement between my bank statement evidence and the claimants, that's all.

Also it's now on record (maybe IND are trying to alter things) with the court that welcome finance\IND suspected the bank statement might not be genuine and might be using it more for the address stated on it!. That's news to me as first I've heard of the claimants suspicious being mentioned to the court but they have signed it as and used it as genuine in there witness statement and evidence.

So will be interesting to see what happens next now or at the hearing!.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

My mistake, their bank statement evidence has no address on it so must have miss heard what the cab said. So for what purpose have they proposed there version of a bank statement as evidence for then?. Unless they needed it in the way of a supporting document to try and validate the agreement?. As that aside, they have not really supplied any supporting documents, no or other alternative bank statement, no proof of income, no wage slips, just the passport photocopy which is likely what I supplied between. 2013\15, and a single page credit card statement.

But seeing as they have since seemingly admitted to the court they suspected the bank statement was suspicious, I'm somewhat concerned that IND might be trying to withdraw that as evidence, as otherwise yes, a very serious matter the court can't really ignore and would have to bring the rest of there witness statement and evidence into question. Also the fact that they have made this admission and concern known to the court yet not formally communicated the same to me makes me feel are they trying to modify there witness statement or trying to mitigate the seriousness of this by informing the court before the hearing in the hope of it being given less weight against them?.

So looking at other options I might have as a backup, such as the agreement. The alleged agreement looks to be missing pages, as the signed page is marked as page 4, the direct debit page marked as page 7 with an unnumbered terms under CCA 1974 sheet that could have come from anything. So where are pages 1,2,3,5 & 6?. Do they therefore have an incomplete agreement or does only the signed page count?.

Also the agreement might have other inconsistencies besides the disputable signature. Firstly one of the points at the bottom state it was signed at there business premises?, yet this is not stated which or where, you'd think welcome would have proof of this visit or IND have mentioned this!. In which case why would the applicant have dated it 21th May yet welcome date it as 31st May?. The dates alone indicate if a genuine agreement them likely wasn't signed as there business premises like welcome claim!.

Also there is PPI in the agreement itself. Whilst its stated it's optional, clearly it wasn't as the PPI looks to be part of the actual total stated in the agreement which seem also subject to the APR. And no details of that apart from a separate sheet its stated welcome will effect an insurance policy, but that's not in the disclosure either.

Posting the signed page in case there are points I've missed.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Ok an update on this, was in court yesterday and the judge found in favour of the claimant for about £5350 odd plus additional costs of about another £1000 odd for both hearings.

A lot of the matter may have rested on that I was refused to submit my witness statement and evidence with the judge citing I'd filed it to late against the court order after the first hearing. This kind of totally ignored that the order and conditions from the first hearing was not dated and issued untill 3 days after the time I had to submit evidence and witness statement expired!. Cited something about that orders can be given verbally at hearings. Yet a number of time scales were mentioned which was why I'd called twice in the first week since first hearing to enquire to be told the judge had not filed any orders or directions yet!. And the judge also said we was both ordered to exchange evidence and witness statements when the first hearing was issued which was also part of his reason, totally ignoring my claim that as I'd never been issued with any details of the claim beyond monies claimed and a meaningless account statement, address it related to, agreement copy, supporting documentation evidence or even address the agreement related to I was never in a position to offer any evidence\counter evidence or witness statement at all.

The judge upon me disputing the signature was mine said whilst he is no expert on handwriting and it might only look similar as claimed against my old passport photo signature said that signatures change over time and that could explain the differences as the old passport signature was 2001, and the agreement signed 2007, yet my evidence had my newer passport and bank card proving my signature had not changed over the years and remains the same as I claimed!.

Ignored my claim the agreement was incomplete (2 pages of a 12 page agreement) citing it contains the relevant part even if the terms of agreement under CCA 1974 sheet might look as if it never formed part of the original agreement against the other 2 pages.

Also told that despite me making a request under CPR 31.14 with my defense in 2013 that the claimant never responded to like they are obliged to that it didn't matter as they claimed to have responded 2 years after the request and provided the requested information eventually anyway!.

Wasn't listened to over that no default notice had ever been issued prior to action in 2013 either!.

Though he sure wasn't happy that this was a case IND filed in 2013 and only now took to hearing.

Judge did point to a possible claim with regards to the PPI against the claimant. But said that would have to be taken as an outright admitence to the debt ownership, which under his judgement I already am the legal owner of this debt now.

So appeal\set aside options aside, which might prove pointless unless I can indicate of prove errors made by the judge I now need to work out how to deal with the PPI and wandering if there is any basic advice or ideas on that?. The original loan was £3000, and the PPI £997 making £3997 at an apr of 48% back in 2007, no payments ever made it seems. The claimant was awarded £5300 odd for the claim alone. So as the PPI was just short of 25% of the original amount does that mean that the PPI could in theory be claimed back as 25% to come off the £5300 awarded or would it be just the original £997?.

Sorry for the long post btw.

[natalie200273]

Dear Andy202

My fiance is having a very similar problem as you. Infact, all of the dates are exactly the same. I had to double check that it wasnt me that posted! Could you kindly update me as to how you are getting on as my fiance is so stressed with it and its making him ill. We have tried everything but unless we are willing to pay for a solicitor, which we can't afford, then we are stuck. My fiance went to Welcome in Crawley to discuss them taking over paying his debts, a debt management plan, but they are saying he had a personal loan which he didn't. The SAR they sent was a joke, double copies, missing items, and what looks like a fraudulent signed agreement as it looks like the signature has been photocopied onto the form. We have been asking for proof of where the money went and they can't say. From 2007 since my fiance cancelled he has been harrassed. Its a very long story but would love to hear from you as to where you are with it. We are so fed up now and are trying to get it resolved, but there is no one that seems to be able to assist. All we want is for them to prove where the money went. If we can get bank statements that go back that far then surely they can? If you want to email you please let me know.

I hope you see this as I need to speak to someone before we both go mad!

[Andy202]

Hiya Natalie, to be honest there is not really much to update in my case. And it probably didn't help in that I got the feeling by some that I was guilty and fully involved in this matter. Had I had the money to lodge an appeal or for a solicitor for the hearing I've little doubt the outcome would have been very different.

As it was, due to some great pre and post advice support from the courts in-house CAB type team they got a court agreement\order for just nominal monthly payments. Will take the f*****s at least several years just to get their legal costs back before this debt even gets touched!. Worst case is if you lose get the courts CAB team to lodge an application to file an income and outcome form, then the courts will independently decide off that form what you can afford to pay against what the claimant wants. Keep to that and IND can never touch or threaten you further as it would be an order of the court and would prevent enforcement and bailiffs unless you miss payments.

One trump card I hoped would have worked that I kept for the day was to ask where their proof of payment is?, as where is their proof of were they placed the money?. As just because thery have a questionable agreement, doesnt mean they prtocessed it as far as payment!. Yet the judge didn't see this as a matter to be concerned about as the agreement was all he really wanted to concentrate on. So if you have not yet been to court push for the proof and evidence on where they sent the payment to. As just because they have a "signed" agreement it doesn't mean they ever processed it to the point where they made the payment. And any follow-up letters claiming payment has been made counts for nothing unless they have a physical proof of transfer of funds including dates and bank account number how can they prove payment was ever made?. Funny I wasn't allowed to better push this point.

I thought the judge was clearly biased in my case as no matter what points and issues I raised he just ignored them. Surely if the agreement signature doesn't match my own signature you'd think that would be a matter of concern for the judge?, apparently not. I even offered to show the judge my current ID on the day to prove my signature has remained constant and not the same as on the agreement, but he didn't want to know.

I even provided proof that the claimnant submitted evidence that was false and they always knew it was suspect but decided not no mention they suspected the evidence was false and submitted as evidence all the same. But guess what, as said the judge said it was to late to submit this evidence, despite that it had only just come to light a week before the hearing. That alone should have been enough to stop the case in its tracks you'd have thought!, but oh no, the claimant tried to make out that I submitted this "false" evidence myself.

Now, some things to mind, if I was guilty and it was me applying for this loian agreement why therefore would I use a false signature that clearly doesn't match the very poor copy of a photocopy of a passport they have obtained?, the agreement was apparently signed in one of their local offices, which you'd think would be covered by CCTV and that's stored in case of such cases like this as evidence, the rest of the application evidence was non existent such a proof of income, pay slips etc. The only other thing they had was an old credit card statement which was genuine.

I always claimed this was a case of identity fraud, many aspects and circumstances point to this yet the judge didn't want to listen such as the address in question was my late dads and I was between addresses myself and used his as a postal address. But around that time my dad was very ill and on more than one occasion his house keys went missing\lost and forgetting to lock the frond door from time to time. And I'd noticed a few off things getting moved, going missing and lack of post for me etc. Just thought it was either my dad due to his illness or persons unknown had managed to get access to the property. Couldn't prove it or go the police as no proof of breaking and entry.


The only real update is kind of odd, a while after the court case I went back to the bank that proved the IND bank statement was fraudulent to enquire on if they could access the account for a period IND claim payment of this loan was made despite them never having stated where it was paid to or provided and proof of transaction. So, they provided the month before the false IND statement, and the month after. And whilst all 3 pages show I wasn't using the bank account and nothing going in, guess what, the loan payment actually did go in!. So where did this money go?, look like it was drawn out locally (ish) from cash machines (rather than a lump sum) daily over a course of 2-3 weeks. I asked the bank since clearly I wasn't using this account at this point did they not find it odd that this lump sum suddenly appeared in a pretty much dormant bank account and was getting drawn out daily via what I guess was the daily maximum limit?. And with such odd account action and method of withdrawal did they not suspect it suspicious enough to block the account and contact me to verify who is using the account as it certainly wasn't me?. Well today it would have flagged up but not 10 years ago they tell me.

I enquire on if they store CCTV that long covering the cash machines as that could identify who was making these withdraws, no they tell me.

[natalie200273]

Hi Andy

I have to say you have described everything that has happened to us so far. The money coming out of the bank in dribs and drabs was the same. Could you kindly tell me which branch of Welcome Finance you used. If it is the same then we defiinately have a case and yours can be reopened! The only difference is he did provide proof of income and his passport as he went there hoping for them to sort out his finances by taking them over and paying his creditors monthly (sort of like a debt management plan (not one with a loan!!!).) We definately need legal advice and are stuck. Did you get a solicitor involved? We have very little expendible money to spare as he is self employed and I am due to go for a serious operation in March and am unsure if I will be paid. Things are bad enough at the moment without the threat of bailiffs etc despite everything being in my name, and the stress is overwhelming, making us both sick!