Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

[MrG147]

I am preparing for next stage of "locking horns" with Howard & Cohen .
quick summary, claim received and I submitted CPR request and CCA request directly to HC requesting the usual credit agreement and copies of deed of assignment and default notice.
Despite sending reminder and offering extension of time if needed in order to comply, nothing received. and so I submitted my defence to the court based around that utilising the backbone of a response of one of the threads on here.
I received acknowlegdment from court and Low and behold 48 hours later I received letter from HC saying they are " looking to recover the documents requested and will send then through in due course. ( or words to that effect).
the closing date for their response is Monday 11th April (33 days , 28 plus 5" for service).
Now one of two things will happen which I would gladly take guidance and input;

1- they will send documents requested. But the only purported copy of the agreement is so illegible it's ridiculous . During 5 years of letter writing I have been sent a reconstituted copy. The barclaycard account was opened over 21 years ago. So I may need to reply on the basis that I have received copy but it's illegible if so , then I assume the defence is they have failed to provide the documents requested because I requested legible copies of all documents and versions since. ?


or option 2- they fail to provide the documents in which case. The claim will be stayed. But I would like to go for strike out. I have read that I need to do this via n244. Also read that it is suggested that I write to the other party and tell them that I will be going for strike out unless they provide .

Does anyone have a template for the n244 response to go for strike out.

3- all my letters state " save as to costs" am I entitled to recover cost for my time ?

look forward to replies

[charitynjw]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

When was the last time you paid into the account, or acknowledged it in writing?

& do you mean Notice of Assignment?

[nemesis45]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

I am preparing for next stage of "locking horns" with Howard & Cohen .
quick summary, claim received and I submitted CPR request and CCA request directly to HC requesting the usual credit agreement and copies of deed of assignment and default notice.
Despite sending reminder and offering extension of time if needed in order to comply, nothing received. and so I submitted my defence to the court based around that utilising the backbone of a response of one of the threads on here.
I received acknowlegdment from court and Low and behold 48 hours later I received letter from HC saying they are " looking to recover the documents requested and will send then through in due course. ( or words to that effect).
the closing date for their response is Monday 11th April (33 days , 28 plus 5" for service).
Now one of two things will happen which I would gladly take guidance and input;

1- they will send documents requested. But the only purported copy of the agreement is so illegible it's ridiculous . During 5 years of letter writing I have been sent a reconstituted copy. The barclaycard account was opened over 21 years ago. So I may need to reply on the basis that I have received copy but it's illegible if so , then I assume the defence is they have failed to provide the documents requested because I requested legible copies of all documents and versions since. ?


or option 2- they fail to provide the documents in which case. The claim will be stayed. But I would like to go for strike out. I have read that I need to do this via n244. Also read that it is suggested that I write to the other party and tell them that I will be going for strike out unless they provide .

Does anyone have a template for the n244 response to go for strike out.

3- all my letters state " save as to costs" am I entitled to recover cost for my time ?

look forward to replies

Good morning Mr G

Please post a copy of the Barclaycard agreement after removing any personal data.

An agreement must be " easily legible in all parts" if it is not then it must be challenged, on validity as recon.

nem

[MrG147]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Last time paid into the account was nearly 5 years ago , I was hoping to get to 6 years but no look there !
whilst I have corresponded with various DCA requesting agreements etc . I have always maintained in each and every correspondence that the account is disputed and denied.

And sorry yes I mean notice of assignment

[MrG147]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Nem. The agreement I have Is one that is copied and is so poor in quality if I was to scan it the quality would only get worse. Honestly you cannot read half of it as the words are that small and its been copied on more than one occasion . Also worth note that the reconstituted agreement has my current address on it. But then I have a seperate piece of paper with the address on it from when I lived at my parents house 20 years ago when the agreement was originally applied for . !

[nemesis45]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Nem. The agreement I have Is one that is copied and is so poor in quality if I was to scan it the quality would only get worse. Honestly you cannot read half of it as the words are that small and its been copied on more than one occasion . Also worth note that the reconstituted agreement has my current address on it. But then I have a seperate piece of paper with the address on it from when I lived at my parents house 20 years ago when the agreement was originally applied for . !

OK,

Do you think the recon is complete for clarification

Reconstituted agreement must have.

1. Your name and address as it was when the account was opened.

2. The Terms & Conditions relevant when the account was opened.

3. The T's & C's relevant when the account was closed.

4. Any other documents that are mentioned in the T's & C's. e.g. The Booklet of T's & C's sent when a credit card is issued.

5. Any material amendments made to the T & C's during the life of the agreement.

You should also have received a signed current statement of the account. ( Not a historic statement (s).

nem

[MrG147]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

I will review the document when I get back home later .but if everything you have listed is required for a valid reconstituted agreement. Then I Cannot see how it could be valid for the following reasons which Are responses against your points

1- my name and address at the time of opening the account is just typed on a separate piece of A4 paper with nothing else on it ! No signature , no terms , no document reference number or reference to any other document with terms!

2- the terms and conditions in the recon that they have sent has my current name and address typed on the top. Therefore answer to this must be no and being as the agreement is over 21 years old. I doubt whether they can find ones from that far back.
,3- in lieu of statement in 2 . This possibly could be the terms at the time of closure.
4. - will check . But I think due to the volume of paper and the size of print. What they have sent may have the booklet terms as well. But again the type is so poor quality it's hard to read it all.
5. Again will check. But over 21 years there would have been a lot of material amendments I guess . So again I doubt this one.

Signed statement of account - I have been sent copies of previous statements .during previous correspondence over the last couple of years. However I summize that this is not a" signed statement of account " ?
By whom should the statement be signed by (and probably stating the obvious) , but what should it contain specifically .

cheers

[nemesis45]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

I will review the document when I get back home later .but if everything you have listed is required for a valid reconstituted agreement. Then I Cannot see how it could be valid for the following reasons which Are responses against your points

1- my name and address at the time of opening the account is just typed on a separate piece of A4 paper with nothing else on it ! No signature , no terms , no document reference number or reference to any other document with terms!

2- the terms and conditions in the recon that they have sent has my current name and address typed on the top. Therefore answer to this must be no and being as the agreement is over 21 years old. I doubt whether they can find ones from that far back.
,3- in lieu of statement in 2 . This possibly could be the terms at the time of closure.
4. - will check . But I think due to the volume of paper and the size of print. What they have sent may have the booklet terms as well. But again the type is so poor quality it's hard to read it all.
5. Again will check. But over 21 years there would have been a lot of material amendments I guess . So again I doubt this one.

Signed statement of account - I have been sent copies of previous statements .during previous correspondence over the last couple of years. However I summize that this is not a" signed statement of account " ?
By whom should the statement be signed by (and probably stating the obvious) , but what should it contain specifically .

cheers

OK Mr G.

From the conversation so far it's possible the recon is incomplete / illegible as well.

There must be two complete sets of T's & C's + the other items mentioned.

nem

[MrG147]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

nem,
i have attached the documents sent to me . Upon review they contain statement etc that you reffered.

look forward to your review and comment

[nemesis45]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

nem,
i have attached the documents sent to me . Upon review they contain statement etc that you reffered.

look forward to your review and comment

Where did the " bill of exchange" idea come from?

nem

[NWHC]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Where did the " bill of exchange" idea come from?

nem

That has clearly come from a FMOTL website , they mention it quite a lot.

Nemesis45
I think that for a S78 request they do not need to send separate ammended terms and conditions as you suggest
They are only required if there is no terms and conditions from default or whatever

So in effect
terms and conditions when opening
Current terms and conditions, i.e the terms that are relevant to the status of the account so if it was closed 12 months ago, the terms from then
True copy of the agreement
A signed balance of account

https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.word...er-credit-act/

[charitynjw]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

nem,
i have attached the documents sent to me . Upon review they contain statement etc that you reffered.

look forward to your review and comment

Hi MrG

I see that this is at 'defence' stage; so a court claim must have been issued.

Who are the Claimants on the court claim form?

[MrG147]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Hoist portfolio holding
Ltd are the claimants .
Interestingly I have noted that I only have a notice of assignment from barclaycard to MKDP and not from MKDP to hoist . Are hoist and MKDP one in the same ? Or should I have recieved another notice of assignment ?

[nemesis45]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

That has clearly come from a FMOTL website , they mention it quite a lot.

Nemesis45
I think that for a S78 request they do not need to send separate ammended terms and conditions as you suggest
They are only required if there is no terms and conditions from default or whatever

So in effect
terms and conditions when opening
Current terms and conditions, i.e the terms that are relevant to the status of the account so if it was closed 12 months ago, the terms from then
True copy of the agreement
A signed balance of account

https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.word...er-credit-act/

Reconstituted agreement.

[NWHC]

Re: Howen & Cohen v Mr G 147 - defence response stage assistanceent

Reconstituted agreement.

I am not sure what that is supposed to mean
The basics of a S77-79 request are the same if it is a copy of the agreement or a recon
The recon needs to be a true recon
Then terms and conditions at inception
Terms and conditions at default or time of request OR a copy of each change
In other words if they include up to date terms and conditions that include the changes made they do not need to include each change.

We do not want people to be going infront of a judge claiming that the creditor has not complied with a cca request because they have not sent separate details of each and every material change when they have also included the necessary default/termination terms.