Bankruptcy

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Yes i have it writing.
the laywers were asking for various info via letters, but i wasnt opening letters or responding to letters as i wasnt in any state to do so,in which case they dropped the case and i lost through default
my set aside was based on this., the judge sent me back to my psychiatrist for report on my ability to litigate... The doctor said i have capability now as i am better

also i dont think the ombudsman can do anything, the indemnity was based on me communicating with my solicitors correctly and in a timely fashion, unfortunately they are correct in that i didnt communicate withem or anybody else for that matter..sorry

my then solicitors were not made aware of my condition

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Yes i have it writing.
the laywers were asking for various info via letters, but i wasnt opening letters or responding to letters as i wasnt in any state to do so,in which case they dropped the case and i lost through default
my set aside was based on this., the judge sent me back to my psychiatrist for report on my ability to litigate... The doctor said i have capability now as i am better

also i dont think the ombudsman can do anything, the indemnity was based on me communicating with my solicitors correctly and in a timely fashion, unfortunately they are correct in that i didnt communicate withem or anybody else for that matter..sorry

my then solicitors were not made aware of my condition

Please show me this indemnity clause....did you sign the letter with the indemnity clause, if so were you at that point suffering from your mental health problems? May I see your psychiatrist report - i have a university qualification in psychology for that matter. If your psych report states that you did not have capacity when you signed the form, there may be a problem there.

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Hi open law

Noi didnt sign it the time i was ill.. But the courts did not accept i was ill at the time of the case either as there was no evidence.. Only after it was finished as that was when i started to a doctor..... I wasnt seeing a doctor at time....as it took my family more than two years to persuade me to seek help..

the report only states i have capacity now...nothing about the past..and i have no idea how i can show you

also last i heard they are going for a detailed assessment..whatever that is

- - - Updated - - -

Also is there a way contacting th lady at debtcamel. I cant seem to find it

[Debt Camel]

Re: Bankruptcy

Hi there!

I'm sorry that you are in such a mess.

A DRO is not an option for you as your name is on a mortgage. You can assert you do not have any beneficial interest if you are made bankrupt, but I don't think you can argue this in a DRO. DROs are designed to cater for the very simplest cases and this isn't one.

If you would like confirmation of that, you could try the Insolvency Helpline https://www.gov.uk/the-insolvency-service. Unlike most helplines it is answered speedily by an expert. They won't give you any advice about what you should do and they won't say what the official receiver is likely to decide about your mum's house in bankrupty, but they should be able to confirm that you will not be able to apply for a DRO.

They would also be able to confirm whether the legal debts you have would be wiped out if you go bankrupt.

I am not as convinced as Openlaw is that it is certain that your mum's house would be safe if you go bankrupt. I don't claim to be an expert in trust law but I know enough to say that Openlaw's lengthy pronouncements are often actively unhelpful for anyone seeking clarity.

I suggest that as a family you should have a frank discussion about this problem. Someone in the family I hope may have the means to pay for some proper legal advice which I think you badly need.

Alternatively if someone could come up with a lump sum it may be possible to offer that in full and final settlement.

There is also the possibility of playing pass the parcel once again with your mother's house, though this would not leave you completely in the clear vis a vis bankruptcy as the Official receiver could potentially reverse such a transaction. But it may be sufficient to prevent your creditors from making you bankrupt. I'm not recommending this, it may be a dreadful idea but it is one more possible route forward.

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Thankyou for the response debt camel.. Much appreciated
i wil explore your suggestions further
can i ask just couple more question

as i have mentioned that when the property was put in my name the deposit was paid by my mother by way of undervalue of the property of 45000...so the property value was 125000

45000(deposit)..was gifted at undervalue so purchase price 80000 . Would this amount be taken into consideration in the event of bankruptcy As this would wipe out most of the equity. I obviously have evidence of this undervalue when sister transfered to me in the way of solicitors letter

also am i liable for the full costs or are the other claimant also liable or are we jointly liable?

thanx

[Debt Camel]

Re: Bankruptcy

as i have mentioned that when the property was put in my name the deposit was paid by my mother by way of undervalue of the property of 45000...so the property value was 125000

45000(deposit)..was gifted at undervalue so purchase price 80000 . Would this amount be taken into consideration in the event of bankruptcy As this would wipe out most of the equity. I obviously have evidence of this undervalue when sister transfered to me in the way of solicitors letter

also am i liable for the full costs or are the other claimant also liable or are we jointly liable?

I'm sorry but you need to see a solicitor for both these issues. It wouldn't help you if I made a guess based on the possibly incomplete information that you have given.

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Ok .. Thank you for your help... I have found a good property solicitor who seems to be an expert on trust law..who has wriiten some some blogs on the subject. Cripps solicitors...i will give them a call on monday.. Thankyou for your help again

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Ok .. Thank you for your help... I have found a good property solicitor who seems to be an expert on trust law..who has wriiten some some blogs on the subject. Cripps solicitors...i will give them a call on monday.. Thankyou for your help again

if your trust was setup correctly in 2008 the official receiver cannot claim an interest...this is the idea behind trusts to protect assets. By the way, the insolvency line and senior manager whom I spoke to about my bankrupt relative's endowment said since the endowment was taken by the official receiver it's within their power to do so and cannot be returned. I said really, I since found out after doing my own research that wasn't the case and I had the endowment returned. So, I wouldn't expect the insolvency line to help you in complex situations such as trusts.

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Wll insolvency direct online have detailed info on trusts and bankruptcy......
according to them the only definitive thing to show beneficial interest in a property is a express trust specially if it is done by solicitor
if it isnt done by a solicitor as in my case then the veracity of the trust must be investigated by the official reciever by asking the witness if they actually witnessed the signing and also asking if i was advised to create the trust by a solicitor and they will then also ask the solicitor if this is correct

i can confirm both the above. I have spoken to the solicitor, he remembers the case and is happy to say that he advised i should create a trust. But i will double check with a property law specialist as advised by debt camel

31.3.135 Express declaration of trust
An express declaration of trust clearly sets out the parties intentions. HM Land Registry has since April 1988 provided for a box on the relevant form [note 28] for the transferees to declare how the beneficial interest in a property is to be held [note 29] and where this is available this should avoid any uncertainty in the parties’ intentions at the time the property was purchased.
The fact that the beneficial interest is determined by an express declaration at the date of acquisition does not mean that it cannot alter thereafter.

31.3.136 Verifying substance of an express trust
Official receivers should take steps to satisfy themselves as to the veracity of any trust deed. These enquiries should seek to establish if the deed was created following advice from a solicitor and, if so, the solicitor and witnesses should be contacted to conform that the deed was created on the date purported. The official receiver should, in particular, ask the witnesses to confirm that they saw the signatures being appended to the deed on the date stated.
If the trust deed was prepared by a solicitor or other professional who confirms the facts then this is likely to be conclusive evidence of the veracity of the deed.


also according to to insolvency direct the fact that some one else contributed to the deposit should create a resulting trust

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Wll insolvency direct online have detailed info on trusts and bankruptcy......
according to them the only definitive thing to show beneficial interest in a property is a express trust specially if it is done by solicitor
if it isnt done by a solicitor as in my case then the veracity of the trust must be investigated by the official reciever by asking the witness if they actually witnessed the signing and also asking if i was advised to create the trust by a solicitor and they will then also ask the solicitor if this is correct

i can confirm both the above. I have spoken to the solicitor, he remembers the case and is happy to say that he advised i should create a trust. But i will double check with a property law specialist as advised by debt camel

31.3.135 Express declaration of trust
An express declaration of trust clearly sets out the parties intentions. HM Land Registry has since April 1988 provided for a box on the relevant form [note 28] for the transferees to declare how the beneficial interest in a property is to be held [note 29] and where this is available this should avoid any uncertainty in the parties’ intentions at the time the property was purchased.
The fact that the beneficial interest is determined by an express declaration at the date of acquisition does not mean that it cannot alter thereafter.

31.3.136 Verifying substance of an express trust
Official receivers should take steps to satisfy themselves as to the veracity of any trust deed. These enquiries should seek to establish if the deed was created following advice from a solicitor and, if so, the solicitor and witnesses should be contacted to conform that the deed was created on the date purported. The official receiver should, in particular, ask the witnesses to confirm that they saw the signatures being appended to the deed on the date stated.
If the trust deed was prepared by a solicitor or other professional who confirms the facts then this is likely to be conclusive evidence of the veracity of the deed.


also according to to insolvency direct the fact that some one else contributed to the deposit should create a resulting trust

You don't have a trust deed. Yours is an express trust..if the solicitor will verify it, your property should be safe and not be part of estate for bankruptcy purposes. The law for declaration of trusts is found at s.53, Law of Property Act 1925, as follows:

"53 Instruments required to be in writing
(a) no interest in land can be created or disposed of except by writing signed by the person creating or conveying the same, or by his agent thereunto lawfully authorised in writing, or by will, or by operation of law;

(b) a declaration of trust respecting any land or any interest therein must be manifested and proved by some writing signed by some person who is able to declare such trust or by his will"

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Yes i know openlaw ..thats why i quoted 31.3.135
Also apparantly according to uk law a trust can exist via verbal agreement , except when land is involved in which case it must be in writing, regadless of whether it is a deed or not. Just a written declaration is enough but in practice it is usually done via deed

also according to certain solicitors online, any signed document is regarded as a deed unless expressly identified as not a deed


but as per good advice i will tke everything i read online with a pinch of salt until i pass all this info through a property specialist

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Yes i know openlaw ..thats why i quoted 31.3.135
Also apparantly according to uk law a trust can exist via verbal agreement , except when land is involved in which case it must be in writing, regadless of whether it is a deed or not. Just a written declaration is enough but in practice it is usually done via deed

also according to certain solicitors online, any signed document is regarded as a deed unless expressly identified as not a deed


but as per good advice i will tke everything i read online with a pinch of salt until i pass all this info through a property specialist

no a deed is very specific, it's more than just signed it has to be made known it's a deed.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Wll insolvency direct online have detailed info on trusts and bankruptcy......
according to them the only definitive thing to show beneficial interest in a property is a express trust specially if it is done by solicitor
if it isnt done by a solicitor as in my case then the veracity of the trust must be investigated by the official reciever by asking the witness if they actually witnessed the signing and also asking if i was advised to create the trust by a solicitor and they will then also ask the solicitor if this is correct

i can confirm both the above. I have spoken to the solicitor, he remembers the case and is happy to say that he advised i should create a trust. But i will double check with a property law specialist as advised by debt camel

31.3.135 Express declaration of trust
An express declaration of trust clearly sets out the parties intentions. HM Land Registry has since April 1988 provided for a box on the relevant form [note 28] for the transferees to declare how the beneficial interest in a property is to be held [note 29] and where this is available this should avoid any uncertainty in the parties’ intentions at the time the property was purchased.
The fact that the beneficial interest is determined by an express declaration at the date of acquisition does not mean that it cannot alter thereafter.

31.3.136 Verifying substance of an express trust
Official receivers should take steps to satisfy themselves as to the veracity of any trust deed. These enquiries should seek to establish if the deed was created following advice from a solicitor and, if so, the solicitor and witnesses should be contacted to conform that the deed was created on the date purported. The official receiver should, in particular, ask the witnesses to confirm that they saw the signatures being appended to the deed on the date stated.
If the trust deed was prepared by a solicitor or other professional who confirms the facts then this is likely to be conclusive evidence of the veracity of the deed.


also according to to insolvency direct the fact that some one else contributed to the deposit should create a resulting trust

The Insolvency information here is the government procedure as per Insolvency Practitioner/ Official Receiver technical manuals. It's all the rules

[Mmmmm1]

Re: Bankruptcy

Thanks open law. Yes i lnow it must state its a deed
im just quoting certain solicitors who have stated that in IN PRACTICE all signed documents are regarded as deed unless otherwise stated
i dont know any better really.. But far as i have read , and im hoping that it makes no difference in my case

[Openlaw15]

Re: Bankruptcy

Thanks open law. Yes i lnow it must state its a deed
im just quoting certain solicitors who have stated that in IN PRACTICE all signed documents are regarded as deed unless otherwise stated
i dont know any better really.. But far as i have read , and im hoping that it makes no difference in my case

this is all you need...

s.53 (b) a declaration of trust respecting any land or any interest therein must be manifested and proved by some writing signed by some person who is able to declare such trust or by his will"

It comes from an ancient case called Milroy