Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Thanks FP that's basically what I was thinking, it doesn't feel like an absolute evidence. If someone made a payment on your behalf (without your instruction or knowledge) though would that still count for limitations ? (can't believe I don't actually know that).

Actually, I started a thread about that last year: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...und#post316142

I believe the payment should be made by you or someone authorised by yourself rather than by anyone else, otherwise all creditors would get someone to pay them £10 to keep the debts alive and get around the Limitation Act.

The problem would be how to prove that the payment was made without your knowledge or consent if it was made by a friend or relative.

[TalbotWoods]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Hi All

Going to see the client on Friday, so will update then. However, I am pretty much 100% that I know what he wants to do, due to his comments on Monday.

Whilst he was away, no one authorised would have made any payment, as when I use the phase "single" I do mean single, no family, no support network, no nothing, etc. (Long and complicated). So the only way a payment could have gone on is if his mythical Uncle Bob, who works at the DCA, accidentally bunged a tenner onto the account.

Will keep you all informed

@FlamingParrot I think that is half the problem the number of DCA, that donate a virtual £10 to keep an account going!

@Amethyst Can you let us know if you ever find an answer to your conundrum please "If someone made a payment on your behalf (without your instruction or knowledge) though would that still count for limitations ? (can't believe I don't actually know that)" Got a feeling that would/could assist a lot of folk

Tim

[Amethyst]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Will do, think my brain fell utterly asleep yesterday I think Flaming Parrots reasoning covers it common sense wise but could do with the actual legal references.

My money is on Uncle Bob

[Crazy council]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Hi TalbotWoody

Firstly, listen to the others about dealing with the debt and the regulations. I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THAT.

But i am very good at accounts, understanding accounting systems, understanding fraudulent use of large accounting systems, and takeling that head on.

I also have experience with dealing with accounting fraud through the proper channels... ( it takes ages and is complex, to present fraud to a judge, there are a number of steps to qualify first ). Am not advising you to do this.

What i might suggest, is the following. Try head them off from the court case.

Write to them, saying that the payment used to jump the statute bared legislation is disputed. And if it turns out that it was not made by the defendant or his immedeate family, you consider this serious, maybe fraudulent.

Ask them to confirm the details of the payment, who it came from, including payment details.. and account it was transfaired from, within 7 days. Ask them, if they are not going to provide you this proof, your formaly asking them to drop all action immedeatly due to the debt being clearly staute barred.

Tell them, if its dropped with immedeate effect, you will not claim any costs for the time and distress that dealing with there claim has caused.

If you need to ro wish to present this as evidence to the judge, you will need them to confirm the payment details, also, i think, you have to formal accuse them of the fraud first, and give them time to answer, before you can present it to the judge..

Just my opinion, like i said, linsten to the others if they recomend against what i have suggested, there are much more up on how to deal with these things than i am

[TalbotWoods]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Hmmmm

Thank you for you reply Crazy council.

For your information I am a debt advisor, with many years experience, including working with clients who have recently been released from prison (with 18 months), so yes I am aware of the pit falls my clients can find themselves in; As a result I am 'fairly confident' with the laws and regulations pertaining to my clients needs. I am also aware that many of my clients would not even think about challenging this, but this time it is different. The client is highly educated, intelligent and absolutely furious that they are trying it on. Prison has not left him bitter, but it has left him hell a lot more of knowing when an organisation or individual is taking advantage. He is not the type of person who would throw in the towel if he was in the right, even if others look at his past and knowing discriminate against him.

I am FULLY aware of what my client is up to, and he is determined to get this into court, and yes I have already tried to dissuade him. So as he will not back down, I WILL back him up to the extent that the law permits, to make sure his rights are not abused any further.

As it is the evidence that the client has, well it is 100% provable, he did not have bank account, he had no representative, in fact he had no one. The clients prosecution solicitor has agreed to confirm in writing that the bank closed the clients accounts down, on the CPS orders. His defence solicitors can confirm that after the case (other than the usual bit and bobs) there was no contact or representation after 6 months. We can provide evidence that HMPS do not administer inmates affairs, and that during the whole time there no representatives were registered on his behalf, we can also show in court why he has no family. As I have said several times already he is 'single' and has no family and no legal representatives, and no the Prison Service do not administer his estate whilst he is in prison, so there is NO PERSON who could have made that alleged payment (with any form of informed or presumed consent).

In fact this is pretty much the first time even I can be 100% certain that there is a case.

As a result that is why I came on here as I do occasionally to ask advice, especially when it is something that I am not sure about. In this case it was the wording of what needs to be used on his defence to force them to 'strict proof', which Amethyst kindly provided, as she has in the past. I have already said I had checked CPAG, IMA, Wiseadvisor, PAS, etc, and there is no example wording. Unfortunately I know from experience that if I ask for assistance with legal wording the organisation I work for will take about 2 - 3 week before responding.

He IS NOT nor ARE WE SUGGESTING that he even contemplates attempting to argue fraud in court. He is just out to show that the DCA and the Solicitor records are completely incorrect, so by presenting incorrect data, they are misleading the court, and as a result get the case thrown out. (Any complaint to the regulatory authorities would ONLY be suggest to him by me AFTER any court hearing, not before). In fact to be 100% honest, this aspect hadn't even entered my mind until you suggest it!

However, he WILL be challenging them BEFORE court by putting them to strict proof, which offers them one last chance to back out (they wont as the solicitors are quite aggressive).

In a way I hope that the DCA spots the trap and throws the towel in, it will save a lot of hassles, but the other side of me hopes that they are ignorant to try and bluff it out in court. If they did bluff it out and loose, then though it is not a high court case, others could cite it as an example in their defences of DCAs fabricating payments (Sorry errors).

Odd isn't it that a solitary ex-prisoner is the one person that can prove to a court that a DCA/Solicitors are 100% wrong!

[Amethyst]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

It's quite nice when you have a 'client' like that. I'm not sure it will result with the satisfaction he envisages but hell it's worth playing the game with them.

[righty]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

The DCA Lawyers tried that one recently in court but it was successfully disputed, The counter argument was if that were so anyone including the DCA in question could & probably would make the payment to unbar the debt

[righty]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

The court agreed with me that it would be intolerable if just anyone, without the debtors knowledge, could make a payment who's sole purpose would be to restart time

[Guest]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

So how the hell do you put on a defence that he wishes to challenge the Solicitor and DCA and put them under ‘strict proof’ to produce their evidence of payment received? What law applies, what anything applies?

Congregation Union Inc v Harriss and Harriss [1988] 1 ALL ER

[TalbotWoods]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

[MENTION=41182]andy58[/MENTION]

Do you have a copy of this or a link to the case, asking as all I can find on this is commonwealth based on England/Wales.

I can see the bit you are getting at

In London Congregational Union Inc. v. Harris & Harris (a firm) [1988] 1 All E.R. 15 at 30 Ralph Gibson, L.J. said:

“The onus lies on the plaintiffs to prove that their cause of action accrued within the relevant period.”

Cited in IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE OF JAMAICA IN CIVIL DIVISION CLAIM NO. 2009HCV 06726

Can't find any examples of it being used in an E&W case

OK Probable me

TIA

Tim

[Mikey4]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Hi
I'm really interested in this thread as I have just had a telephone hearing
my defence being statue barred
basically the judge favoured with the their solicitor even tho I had bank statements proving I had not paid any money to them in over 6 years.
The only proof they had was 1 A4 piece of paper with codes of different payments made on the account from 2007-2010 none of them were payments from me!

i sent my witness statement and proof of payments to the judge but he didn't seem to mind the fact that these phantom payments!! We're made on the account..

I find this really frustrating as I know 100% that these payments are false and surely this is Fraud!
I want to take this further but I'm running out of options

[skilganon]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

could you not contact or go into the bank and request information as to when, where and who made these payments ?

could provide you with the opportunity to appeal or even bring a claim of your own

[seduraed]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

If it is any help I used to work for a DCA doing doorstep collecting. We only kept non paying accounts for three weeks . However we were advised that we could keep an account on our book by making a £1 payment fro our own pocket . I it's any help I am willing t make a sworn statement to that effect .

[Nibbler]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Burden of proof.

Page 36, and 200-201 as labelled on pages: http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...of_Actions.pdf



also see from a veritable tome: http://i.imgur.com/yfvgKz5.png

Not got copies of cited cases I'm afraid though.

[Amethyst]

Re: Strict Proof for a Staute Barred Debt Payment

Hi
I'm really interested in this thread as I have just had a telephone hearing
my defence being statue barred
basically the judge favoured with the their solicitor even tho I had bank statements proving I had not paid any money to them in over 6 years.
The only proof they had was 1 A4 piece of paper with codes of different payments made on the account from 2007-2010 none of them were payments from me!

i sent my witness statement and proof of payments to the judge but he didn't seem to mind the fact that these phantom payments!! We're made on the account..

I find this really frustrating as I know 100% that these payments are false and surely this is Fraud!
I want to take this further but I'm running out of options

This is the list of payments the claimants used. ( it was Northern Rock )

cdad miscellaneous debit
Pac agent payment
PP payment
Woab bad debit write off
uddc payment
Won write on payment
Pacx agent recall
Woff write off


The defendant had his bank statements entered showing no payments were made since July 2007.

Thread is http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...140#post481140