CCJ Summons received.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Sorry got interrupted - so the extension is reasonable on your side and makes it less likely that a judge will just keep giving them more time.

If you have a look at the example defence ( http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...t-Court-Claims ) I have posted in the library you'll get the general idea of what we ask for... you can either defend or apply to ask the court to order they disclose the documents (and strike them out if they fail) -( http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...order-at-court ) this has pitfalls of a) costs £155 b) doesn't always get accepted if you are dealing with a claim under £10k - but it does have more finality about it .

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Hiya,

If you sent the ''template'' CPR request then it does contain this line '...confirm your agreement to an extension'

You will need to let the court know (email is fine) that both parties have agreed to the extension and give them the new defence filing deadline date.

Thanks.

The letter I sent was modified to remove any mention of an extension - so clearly the response is a form letter.

As I've not requested any extension, and don't want one, can't I just file my defence before the original due date? Oh sorry - I've now seen your other response... if I don't I'll be deemed unreasonable. Ok, understood.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Sorry got interrupted - so the extension is reasonable on your side and makes it less likely that a judge will just keep giving them more time.

If you have a look at the example defence ( http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...t-Court-Claims ) I have posted in the library you'll get the general idea of what we ask for... you can either defend or apply to ask the court to order they disclose the documents (and strike them out if they fail) -( http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...order-at-court ) this has pitfalls of a) costs £155 b) doesn't always get accepted if you are dealing with a claim under £10k - but it does have more finality about it .

Thanks.

Much of that example defence (omitting #12) is relevant and, if they don't provide the requested paperwork before the defence-due date, I can use.

Can I modify it to be more assertive?
Example changes:
Para #3... modified it to 'it is neither admitted nor denied that the defendant entered into such an agreement'.
And with that in mind, do #14 and #15 need to be included?

Or will such changes likely suggest to the Court that I'm being evasive and thus have them favor the claimant (although they still have to prove it)?

If I ever have the money and can be bothered to apply for an 'unless' order, I may do so - but for now let's see what happens... hell, they may have paperwork. :-)

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Yes, you are under no obligation to wait until the end of the extension period, just as you are under no obligation to wait until the end of the initial defence period. The issue with defending before giving the other side a chance to come up with the goods is that if they do then come up with the documents after you have filed your defence you may need to amend your defence, and you'd be more likely to be awarded the costs of doing so ( £50 or £155 application ) if you'd given the claimants opportunity to respond. It just a case of showing that you are more reasonable than they but I completely understand the attitude of 'why the buggery should I give them more time to come up with documents they should have had before they bought the claim'.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

The unless order application would need to be done BEFORE a defence is filed - as after you are allocated to a track -(soon after filing defence) - it is a dead duck.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

The unless order application would need to be done BEFORE a defence is filed - as after you are allocated to a track -(soon after filing defence) - it is a dead duck.

Thanks.
I don't have the money, so won't.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Thanks.

Much of that example defence (omitting #12) is relevant and, if they don't provide the requested paperwork before the defence-due date, I can use.

Can I modify it to be more assertive?
Example changes:
Para #3... modified it to 'it is neither admitted nor denied that the defendant entered into such an agreement'.
And with that in mind, do #14 and #15 need to be included?

Or will such changes likely suggest to the Court that I'm being evasive and thus have them favor the claimant (although they still have to prove it)?

If I ever have the money and can be bothered to apply for an 'unless' order, I may do so - but for now let's see what happens... hell, they may have paperwork. :-)

Yes modify it to be more assertive, it's just a basic outline, so long as your defence is true

Date wise you should wait until the time scale given in your CPR request is up, and 12+2 days from the CCA request really, but other than that you can put the defence in any time before the deadline.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Yes modify it to be more assertive, it's just a basic outline, so long as your defence is true

Date wise you should wait until the time scale given in your CPR request is up, and 12+2 days from the CCA request really, but other than that you can put the defence in any time before the deadline.

Thanks.
I don't want to be too wimpy, nor aggressive.
But as in many of these claims the claimant doesn't act as they should, I'm not about to meekly roll over... hence my view of filing as soon as it's become clear that the supporting paperwork isn't available within the original timeframe (and with the 'we should be able to within 40 days' reply it's now become clear that it's unlikely to be)... with an attitude of 'they brought the case and their statement of truth suggests they should have had the evidence available - which clearly they haven't, so let's get on with it'.

[Ruby]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Hi Hheyes, I am going through almost an identical case as yours at the moment and wish you the very best of luck. I just received a court summons from Cabot's solicitors today with regard to a Vanquis card. I will be sending off a CCA request tomorrow.

Lets fight these buggers together :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Hi Hheyes, I am going through almost an identical case...
Lets fight these buggers together

Good luck. :-)

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Yes modify it...
Date wise you should wait until the time scale given in your CPR request is up, and 12+2 days from the CCA request really, but other than that you can put the defence in any time before the deadline.

Having drafted something very simple, ready to be filed after the 12+2 date, hopefully someone can yay/nay what's below.

==========================================
In the Northampton CCBC

Claim Number: *********

Between
Claimant: Cabot Financial (Uk) Limited
and
Defendant: ******

DEFENCE

1 I do not acknowledge the alleged debt, and have no clear recollection of any such agreement, nor of receiving the appropriate default, assignment, and other notices.

2 On August 26 I sent a Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 request to Mortimer Clarke (the Claimant's solicitors), for information relevant to the claim and including Agreement, Default Notice, Notice of Assignment, Formal Demand.

3 On August 30 I received a response, advising that they were taking client instruction and would respond accordingly. They also indicated their agreement to a 28-day extension of the time for me to file a defence, even though I hadn't asked for one.

4 On August 26 I sent a Consumer Credit Act 1974 (sections 77-79) request to the Claimant, for a copy of the Consumer Credit Agreement.

5 On August 30 I received a response, advising that they 'had requested the information from the original lender and expected to be able to provide it within 40 days'.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

Signed …………………………………………

Dated .................................................. ....

==========================================

When the content is ok, is this what I enter into the 'Please state your defence in a maximum of 122 lines in the box below.' page at MCOL?

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

I think your defence will just make the court question why you have put a defence in when you have asked for information, the claimants have indicated they need time to supply it and offered an extension on your defence filing date. You also don't really defend the claim just complain about the documents.

Though I do agree with you, I would take out ''They also indicated their agreement to a 28-day extension of the time for me to file a defence, even though I hadn't asked for one.''


I'd also switch a bit of wording - eg

2 On August 26 I sent a Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 request to Mortimer Clarke

2 On August 26 2014 I sent a request for information pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 to Mortimer Clarke Solcitors

Same with the CCA para

I'd also add in a couple further paragraphs..... something like;

5 On August 30 I received a response advising that they 'had requested the information from the original lender and expected to be able to provide it within 40 days'. I am surprised the Claimants had not had sight of the agreement they intend to rely on in this claim.

6 The Claimant has therefore failed to comply with my request and by virtue of s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 cannot enforce the agreement.

7. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore It is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

8. At this stage without documentation I am unable to plead fully to the claim. I request the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for me to fully plead my case else the Claim should stand struck out.

9. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimants I will then be in a position to amend my defence, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

When the content is ok, is this what I enter into the 'Please state your defence in a maximum of 122 lines in the box below.' page at MCOL?

Yes you can, you don't need the header or footer bits if using MCOL just the numbered paras.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Yes you can, you don't need the header or footer bits if using MCOL just the numbered paras.

Thanks.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

I think your defence will just make the court question why you have put a defence in when you have asked for information, the claimants have indicated they need time to supply it and offered an extension on your defence filing date.

Thanks.

My view is that I clearly can't admit to something which I don't know is right, and that I didn't ask for an extension because I don't want this matter hanging around (because I have other (business/personal issues) things to do, and during which I don't want/need to be having to deal with this).

And regardless of that, because of their statement of truth I'd have thought it reasonable that they had such info to hand and could therefore provide it within the initial timeframe.

So, if they want an extension, surely it's for them to make such a request... and in the absence of such for me to file a defence.

You also don't really defend the claim just complain about the documents.
Though I do agree with you, I would take out ''They also indicated their agreement to a 28-day extension of the time for me to file a defence, even though I hadn't asked for one.''

I thought that 'I do not acknowledge the alleged debt' was enough. Do I instead have to use something like 'I deny the alleged debt because...' and if so what needs to be included?

I wasn't complaining about the docs, simply stating that they'd said they didn't yet have 'em (which is the precursor of 'until they do, this can't be enforced' and which the court will know).

I'd also switch a bit of wording - eg
2 On August 26 I sent a Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 request to Mortimer Clarke

2 On August 26 2014 I sent a request for information pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 to Mortimer Clarke Solcitors

Same with the CCA para

Ok. I thought the inference was clear, but I'm happy to reword as suggested.

I'd also add in a couple further paragraphs..... something like;

5 On August 30 I received a response advising that they 'had requested the information from the original lender and expected to be able to provide it within 40 days'. I am surprised the Claimants had not had sight of the agreement they intend to rely on in this claim.

6 The Claimant has therefore failed to comply with my request and by virtue of s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 cannot enforce the agreement.

7. Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a money claim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore It is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

8. At this stage without documentation I am unable to plead fully to the claim. I request the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for me to fully plead my case else the Claim should stand struck out.

9. In the event that the relevant documents are received from the Claimants I will then be in a position to amend my defence, and would ask that the Claimants bear the costs of the amendment.

For 5, I didn't want to be expressing an opinion on their performance because I didn't consider it to be a relevant issue.

On 6-7, I didn't want to be seeming to advise the Court on procedure... surely the legal position with enforceability is clear and understood

For 8, I think that I *am* able to fully plead the claim, on a basis of 'I don't know anything about it'... and that's not likely to change, even if appropriate paperwork becomes available - I simply don't remember it.

And for 'provide... or struck out 'I that the Court would automatically allow the claimant more time and that to ask for it to be struck out required me to file a paid request.

On 9, not knowing how the defence process works, I thought the process is 'I file a defence now; it gets sent to the claimant; a hearing is set at which we both speak'. Is that not so, and at the hearing if things I've changed could I not say something like 'Actually, I now do remember something about this, but it's so long ago I've no paperwork and hence can't be sure about it'? Or is that not permissible?

Overall, this should hinge on whether they have the required paperwork... and if it does exist and is produced, then presumably I lose, regardless of what my defence has been?

I hope this doesn't seem contentious - it's not meant to be. I'm simply trying to understand enough to be able to deal with this sensibly, rather than having to keep coming back for 'what do I do next?' (which of course is exactly what I am doing). :-)