No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

[Pickle2014]

I am SO confused and I just don't know who to ask or turn to. I'm not even sure I can put it all down so it makes sense. I apologise profusely in advance for my ramblings.

Basically my ex and myself took on a pub in 2010, it failed and we split up and the we still owe the money for the lease. We took over the pub (and bought the lease) from our friend at the time, "Bob". We personally guaranteed the sale agreement. We have never seen him since and obviously because we owe him a lot of money he has taken us to court. The Sale Agreement was for £40,000 and due to end on 28th February 2017. The Limited Company is Defendant 1, my ex is Defendant 2 and I am Defendant 3. With interest the debt now stands at £48,000. "Bob" has gone through: getting a CCJ (more about this later but I understand he must've done to keep the process going and get his money) for which a payment forthwith not installment order seems to have been issued; an Interim Charging Order (on Land Registry); a Final Charging Order (I never received my own copy of this but a copy, Final C.O not on the Land Registry) and constantly threatening to make an Application for an Order for Sale. I have been doing all I can to try and sort it out out of court but my ex wants rid of the house (I still live in it and have solely paid the mortgage for nearly 3 years now). "Bob" eventually did make the Application for an Order for Sale and my ex didn't oppose it. I did, and sent a letter to the court explaining my situation. The hearing was 30th April 2014 and the judge suspended the Order for Sale for 6 months while my Son does his GCSEs and I try and arrange a re-mortgage with my parents as guarantors with the intent of paying "Bob" off and then pursuing my ex for his half.

What doesn't make sense is that I cannot find my CCJ anywhere. I started by waiting for it to crop up on my credit file and it never did. So I looked into this online and found there's a website which you can pay to use. So I paid and it's not registered. I asked my ex if he has one and that message always gets ignored. We jointly own the house (mortgage people previously said it would automatically transfer when I asked what type). On the Land Registry the debt to "Bob" is down as a Restriction (think it may be a Form K type judging by the wording) and it's not in the Charges section, however in the restriction both of our names are mentioned, as are the words "beneficial interest". In the charges section is the mortgage and an entry Equitable Charge for guttering we had done when we bought the house.

Am I right in thinking that perhaps the debt has just been lodged against my ex and not me (as it is down as a restriction, not an equitable charge, my lack of CCJ, my lack of copy of Final Charging Order)?? And that if it is a Form K restriction, that this severs what was once a Beneficial Joint Tenancy and it is now Tenancy in Common? If so, does this all mean that the house could be sold before the 6 months are up without having to worry about the "Charging Order". ALSO (!!) the Application for the Order for Sale was made at our local County Court even though the amount "Bob" is claiming is well over the County Court Limit of £30,000. In 6 months time could I buy more time by saying to the court that he didnt follow proper procedure by applying to the Chancery Division of the High Court?? Also is it true that "if an application for an Order for Sale is made, a claim will be sent to all co-owners. This may include someone who owes no money to the creditor. However, because that person owns part of the property against which the debt is secured the court must treat them all as defendants in the case".

Thank you SO much for taking the time to read this.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Hi and welcome

This seems to have gone quite far, you say you were taken to court, did you ever get the claim forms? This is the place to search for CCJs: http://www.trustonline.org.uk/search-yourself

They'd need to have one in order to apply for a charge on a property, UNLESS the debt was secured on it in the first place. Business loans and overdrafts are often guaranteed on the business owners' personal property. Could this have been the case here? :noidea:

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Hi FlamingParot, thank you for replying :-) It has gone quite far, I was letting my ex and his Dad (a solicitor) deal with it all to start with, and they'd write out letters for me to sign etc.

Trust Online is where I searched to find I don't have a CCJ. I believe I have received the original claim, and all otherpaper work, but I don't have an N30 (judgment for claimant) or final charging order. The arrangment when we took on the pub was that we personally guaranteed the agreement, I'm not entirely sure what this would mean though. I haven't seen anything regarding the house in the original paperwork, but then I wasn't looking for that specifically. I shall look now. Thank you :-)

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

The claim form states:

13. The Second and Third Defendant entered into a Personal Guarantee in respect of the Sale Agreement, guaranteeing payment of all sums due by the First Defendant to the Claimant. The Guarantee is included in the Sale Agreement at clause 14. The terms of the guarantee inter alia are as follows:

13.1 "The Purchasers' Guarantor jointly and severally unconditionally guarantees to the Vendor as principal obligor full and prompt and complete performance by the Purchaser of all its obligations and covenants under this Agreement and the due and punctual payment of all sums payable no ir in the future to the Vendor by the Purchaser and the performance of all obligations and covenants under this Agreement when and as the same shall become due for payment or performance (as the case may be) and undertakes with the Vendor that if an each time that the Purchaser shall be in default in the payment of any sum whatsoever or the performance of any obligation under this Agreement the Purchasers' Guarantor will within seven days of receipt of written demand make good the default and pay all sums which may be payable and do all things required as if the Purchasers' Guarantor instead of the Purchaser were expressed to the primary obligor".

14. Pursuant to the Personal Guarantee the Second and Third Defendant are also liable for the sums due to the Claimant.


Phew... I have no idea what any of that means!!!

[wales01man]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Someones gotta pay up If its a Legal agreement the exs Solicitor dad should be able to help

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Hmm no they just want to get rid of the debt to "Bob" and the house! We were given the opportunity to make "Bob" and offer and they refused to even look at raising any funds. I want to keep the house and pay off "Bob" by re-mortgaging or if I HAVE to sell the house possibly pay him what he would've accepted as an offer, which is why I'm wondering about the Restriction thing on the Land Registry.

I've been paying the mortgage on my own for 3 years and have made significant improvements to the house and the ex and his Dad wants the debt gone, the house gone and his half of any equity in the house, including any increase in equity in the last 3 years, which is why I'm also wondering about the effect of the Restriction severing the Joint Tenancy.

It's all so complicated and I just can't find anyone with the answers! I just want it all to be fair rather than smoke and mirrors and greed and them bullying me into things which is all they've tried to do so far. Time for a cuppa.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

The claim form states:

You got a claim form, what happened next? Did you admit it, defend it? You say there's no CCJ recorded. Did you ever get notice of judgment for the claimant?

13. The Second and Third Defendant entered into a Personal Guarantee in respect of the Sale Agreement, guaranteeing payment of all sums due by the First Defendant to the Claimant. The Guarantee is included in the Sale Agreement at clause 14. The terms of the guarantee inter alia are as follows:

13.1 "The Purchasers' Guarantor jointly and severally unconditionally guarantees to the Vendor as principal obligor full and prompt and complete performance by the Purchaser of all its obligations and covenants under this Agreement and the due and punctual payment of all sums payable no ir in the future to the Vendor by the Purchaser and the performance of all obligations and covenants under this Agreement when and as the same shall become due for payment or performance (as the case may be) and undertakes with the Vendor that if an each time that the Purchaser shall be in default in the payment of any sum whatsoever or the performance of any obligation under this Agreement the Purchasers' Guarantor will within seven days of receipt of written demand make good the default and pay all sums which may be payable and do all things required as if the Purchasers' Guarantor instead of the Purchaser were expressed to the primary obligor".

14. Pursuant to the Personal Guarantee the Second and Third Defendant are also liable for the sums due to the Claimant.

Phew... I have no idea what any of that means!!!

In plain English, it's intended to get around the issue of limited liability that a limited company offers, i.e. the company's directors and/or shareholders are not personally liable for any debts incurred in the name of the company. Since the First Defendant was a limited company, the Second and Third Defendants (you and your ex) guarantee the loan, making you both personally liable for making payments if the company fails to do so. It also means that, if the company got liquidated, you and your ex would be personally liable for it, which wouldn't be the case without this personal guarantee.

Since companies are quite easy to liquidate, personal guarantees are often required when lending money to a business incorporated as a limited company.

What you need to look at are the terms of the guarantee itself rather than the claim form, to see if the loan was secured on property in the first instance. A lot of business loans are secured on the owners' property.

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Hi Flaming Parrot, thank you for your reply. I've sent my ex a message to find out what happened with the initial claim, not sure I'll get a reply.

Regarding the CCJ, this may be a silly question but what exactly does notice of judgment look like? Does it say Judgment For Claimant on the top and N30 on the bottom? I don't have one of those in all my paperwork, and I don't recall seeing one ever. I've had to Google it a bit and that's what I found that you receive when you the CCJ is granted, is that right?

I have had a good look through the Sale Agreement and can't see anything in there about the property, would there be particular wording?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Hi Flaming Parrot, thank you for your reply. I've sent my ex a message to find out what happened with the initial claim, not sure I'll get a reply.

Regarding the CCJ, this may be a silly question but what exactly does notice of judgment look like? Does it say Judgment For Claimant on the top and N30 on the bottom? I don't have one of those in all my paperwork, and I don't recall seeing one ever. I've had to Google it a bit and that's what I found that you receive when you the CCJ is granted, is that right?

They can be a bit different from each other, however, you say there is no CCJ on record. A lot of people get CCJs without getting the judgment order because they've moved and the order would have been sent to their old address as would have the court papers, however, the CCJ would still be on the register.

I have had a good look through the Sale Agreement and can't see anything in there about the property, would there be particular wording?

It would be under the personal guarantee. Any chance of posting up what you've got (remove personal details first)? :typing:

Without a CCJ, the only way I can see there being a charge on the property is if the personal guarantee had been secured on it in the first place, which is not uncommon with business loans.

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Mmm, I checked on the Trust Online site and there's nothing registered there, and I haven't moved since 2007 so no problem there either!

Of course, I will post up the Agreement after work.

So should the charge be under the Charges section on the Land Register? Would it appear there if it had been secured on the property in the original Agreement? The only items there are the mortgage and a charging order (equitable charge) for guttering we had done when we first bought the house. The debt here is under the Restrictions bit.

[ploddertom]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

There should be a Claim No on the paperwork you have?

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Good morning ploddertom. I have two Claim Numbers noted down, I presume this is because the case was moved from Manchester County Court to my local one.

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

FlamingParrot - here we go, this is the Purchaser's Guarantor from the Sale Agreement ...

14 Purchasers' Guarantor
14.1 The Purchasers' Guarantor jointly and severally unconditionally guarantees to the Vendor as principal obligor full and prompt and complete performance by the Purchaser of all its obligations and covenants under this Agreement and the due and punctual payment of all sums payable now or in the future to the Vendor by the Purchaser and the performance of all obligations and covenants under this Agreement when and as the same shall become due for payment or performance (as the case may be) and undertakes with the Vendor that if and each time that the Purchaser shall be in default in the payment of any sum whatsoever or the performance of any obligation under this Agreement the Purchasers' Guarantor will within seven days of receipt of written demand make good the default and pay all sums which may be payable and do all things required as if the Purchasers' Guarantor instead of the Purchaser were expressed to the primary obligor.

14.2 The guarantee is a continuing guarantee and shall remain in force until all obligations and covenants of the Purchaser under this Agreement have been discharged and performed in full.

14.3 The Obligations of the Purchasers' Guarantor hereunder shall bot be affected by any omission matter or thing which but for this cause might operate to release or otherwise exonerate the Purchasers' Guarantor from its obligations or covenants hereunder or affect such obligation or covenants including but not limited to :-

14.3.1 any time or indulgence granted to or composition with the Purchaser

14.3.2 the taking variation compromise renewal or release of or refusal or neglect to prefect or enforce any right or remedies against the Purchaser

14.3.3 any legal limitation disability incapacity or other circumstances relating to the Purchaser or any other person or any amendment to or variation of the terms of this Agreement or any other document or security; or

14.3.4 any irregularity unenforceability or invalidity of any obligation of the Purchaser under this Agreement with the intent that the Purchasers' Guaranto's obligations under this guarantee shall remain in full force and this guarantee shall be construed accordingly as if there were no such irregularity unenforceability or invalidity

14.4 The Purchasers' Guarantor waives any right it may have or first requiring the Vendor to proceed against or enforce any guarantee or security of or claim payment from the Purchaser.


It then goes onto the Vendor's Guarantor.


I have a copy of a letter to us that provides other information ...

Dear Sir and Madam,

We act on behalf of ******** Catering Limited.

We have in our possession your letter to our client date April 2011. Contrary to your allegation that our client knowingly withheld the Deed of Variation in the sale, our client was not even aware of its existence until you disclosed it recently.

As to the balance of your letter, the sale agreement dated March 2010 provides that the purchase price of £40,000.00 would be paid by instalments over a 7 year period beginning June 2010 and ending 28th February 2017. The **** **** *** Company Limited (the "Company") breached the Agreement in October 2010 by failing to pay the whole instament due for that month. Further, it failed to make any further payments when falling due.

Clause 3.2.4 iii) of the Agreement stipulated that in the event the Company owes a sum equivalent to the last three instalments due the whole balance of the purchase price becomes payable within 14 days. Since it is in breach of clause 3.2.4 iii) the balance of the purchase price i.e. £38,000.00 is now due and owing in full.

In addition, and pursuant to clause 3.2.5 of the Agreement, interest is accruing at a daily rate of £4.79 calculated at 4% above the current base rate of the Royal Bank of Scotland plc and will continue until payment is received.

Pursuant to clause 14 of the Agreement you guaranteed the complete performance of the obligations of the Company under the Agreement. In view of the Company's default we hereby serve written demand upon you under that clause requiring you to make good the default within the next 7 days.

Our client has been patient long enough but is not prepared to allow you further time. In the circumstances, unless payment of the sum of £39,578.64 is received from you by 4pm 8th July 2011, we are instructed to issue court proceedings against you, or serve a statutory demand with a view to issuing a bankruptcy petition, without further notice. In the event proceedings become necessary costs will be sought in addition to the principal sum and continuing interest.

Yours sincerely.

[Pickle2014]

Re: No CCJ yet C.O. & Order for Sale, Restriction on Land Registry. Something's up!!

Also, regarding how I responded to the original claim, I haven't heard back from my ex yet but looking through the paperwork I can see that...

The Claimant's solicitor sent a letter to someone on 1st July 2011. Not having a copy of this letter I'm unsure of what it says but I think it must have stated that payment is due and payable.

Then on 22nd July 2011 our solicitor at the time wrote to the Claimant's solicitor and we acknowledged liability for the sums. We stated we did not have financial means to make payment. It also stated that the public house had run at a loss and as a result Enterprise Inns had approached us regarding a potential surrender of the lease date April 1994 and that any such surrender would also release "Bob" of the indemnity provided to Mr and Mrs Stubbs pursuant to the Assignment dated 2008. We asked for more time to negotiate a surrender of the Lease.

Then on 2nd October 2011 the Claimant's previous solicitor made demand for payment of the sums due under the Sale Agreement.

On 5th October 2011 the Claimant's current solicitor sent a demand for sums due.

On 18th October 2011 the Claimant received a letter from my ex offering £10 per week. The same letter was typed up for me to sign. The offer was rejected. Rather unsurprisingly!

The original Claim form has a date stamp of "Date of Service 1 NOV 2011" at Manchester County Court.


PHEWWWWWW...!!!!! I have no idea if any of that is what you were asking for or if I've just rambled on!!! Apologies if it was the latter.