Court claim - House building plans

[Red Jim]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Hi MissFM.

I am going to pen a letter this evening, to produce a 'my side of the story' to each of the claims he has made. Included in this I will quote the statement from his letter and ask that he produces the document he refers to, safe in the knowledge that no such document exists.

I will be seeing a solicitor for an hour next week just to run this by him/her prior to sending.

I have just found out that his wife is a solicitor, which is a concern!

My 14 days to respond are up on the 4th of November. By this time I will have put together a comprehensive account of my experience. I am very concerned about the outcome, especially as he has unlimited free use of his wife's time and knowledge. At the same time I refuse to roll over and let him effectively steal £2000 from me.

I will be following your advice and counter claiming.

I will keep you both posted. Many thanks again for your assistance. It is very my appreciated.

I will keep you posted.

James

[enquirer]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Does as was originally agreed in writing, imply this was documented and signed?

Yes, it means exactly what it says.

If so, not such document was produced, let alone signed.

He has stated in writing that there is a prior written agreement, yet will be unable to produce it when required to do so.

Until he made this mistake, the balance was tipping his way (you had no paperwork at all, whilst he had some, however dishonest in origin). You can now demonstrate that at best, his version of events is highly suspect.

[MissFM]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

James - don't worry about his wife being a solicitor. I suspect that he may have traded on this in the past and is hoping thus to intimidate you - maybe he needs to remember that she is subject to the Solicitors Regulation Authority, the Legal Ombudsman and (like us mere mortals) the law of the land.

Solicitors are not infallible and are not magicians - the truth is the truth and they are not given special dispensation to alter it. Solicitors are certainly bound by strict codes of conduct which do not allow them to aid their clients in telling known fibs (in committing perjury) to obtain money not owed to them - or to retain money gained under false pretences.

Do post your letter here (personal identifying details removed) if you think we can help with the drafting. Keep it factual and keep the narrative bald - edit out any emotion that creeps in (hard, I know).

Some further thoughts - do you have outline planning permission? If so, are his draft designs in accordance with this?

Did he send you a Letter Before Action?

The other thing I really do want to say is - please reassure your mother and tell her not to worry. It does make my blood boil when bullies go for the most vulnerable, exploiting the fact that vulnerable people are more likely to pay up rather than endure the fear and stress.


x

[enquirer]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

James - don't worry about his wife being a solicitor. I suspect that he may have traded on this in the past and is hoping to thus intimidate you.

Yes, it's a most fortuitous combination.

[Red Jim]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Hi all. Below is the letter I have written to send. This may be difficult for you to follow, given you haven't read previous letters. I hope that most answers give a fairly good idea of the accusation that they were a response to.

He told us that there was no point going for outline plan first.

After looking through all the correspondence, it seems he did send a letter, but it was not signed/agreed, as he suggested. Let me know your thoughts:

Thanks for your last letter dated 18^th October 2013. I find myself yet again having to write solely to address the false claims made in your letter:

1)You claim to have it on record that my cousin, Mr ****, told you that we “enjoyed messing people about, and that we had a long history of it”. I have since spoken to Mr ****, who strongly denies ever having said this and was quite unhappy that you would make such a thing up to be used against his own cousin and aunt. What’s more, I challenge you to find a single person who could vouch for my mother or I ever having ‘messed someone around’. I take a very dim view of this ‘telling tales’ in light of the severity of the situation.

2)You did indeed offer to alter the last drawing but this clearly was to refer to at a later date as at this point communication had broken down because of your manor and rudeness in the weeks previous to this. I’m sure that you were fully aware upon sending the letter that we would not wish to engage with you further.

3)You have now referred in 2 letters to a conversation where I apparently agreed the plans subject to a few minor alterations. We both know this to be untrue. I told you that I was happy with the internal layout subject to some not so minor alterations (change to lounge, kitchen, bedrooms and internal walls, inclusion of a downstairs toilet, removal of the chimney and addition of more windows) but told you that the dimensions and the appearance of the building were, and I quote “not what we wanted”.

4)Please stop referring to your 7 site visits and 14 hours of time spent, as this is not the case. I would however like to apologise for saying it was only 4 visits. Upon further consideration, this was 5, as I had overlooked your very short visit to drop off the planning books. This would not affect the initial estimate of 5 hours of time spent with us by more than 15 minutes or so. I would like to also state that much of the overall time was spent listening to your views on a range of matters including WW2, government policies and your previous marriage.

I must say that I was flabbergasted when I returned home from work on Wednesday to find a claim form from Northampton County Court stating that you were now taking legal action to pursue £1000 which you believe we owe you. It is surely not a coincidence that this was issued 6 days after my last letter stating my intention to start legal action to reclaim the £1000 we have paid you. This was obviously done to ‘strike first’ as you had not previously mentioned any desire to do so.

In your letter dated 2^nd October 2013, you state “previous drawings were completed up to planning submission stage, as was originally agreed in writing”. I request that you produce this document that we agreed/signed, immediately. It does not exist. What I have is a letter dated 17^th June 13, that was not agreed/signed by us. Please do not refer to documents that do not exist in future. I would also like to point out that no plans were completed to planning submission stage as this implies that we were happy with them and so they were ready to submit, which we were and are not.

I am genuinely curious on what grounds you believe we owe you £1000? You completely failed to perform the service which we asked you to perform. We gave you a simple set of instructions at the beginning of the process and you completely ignored them. Added to this is the totally unprofessional and rude manor in which you have acted. This may not be a legal concern but surely some consideration has to be given to this contributing to why we no longer wanted to continue the relationship.

Moreover, I feel that common sense alone would tell anyone that (after paying out £1000, when we are on a very tight budget) until the situation reached the point of no return, we would have done and did anything we could to resolve problems and successfully complete and submit plans.

Which brings us to the current situation. We now find ourselves communicating exclusively through these ‘I said, you said’ letters and facing time in court and no doubt extensive solicitor fees. I would ask that if you had a better idea, which would avoid a lengthy, time consuming legal exchange, that you let us know now.

This being said, please be aware that I am not interested in leaving things ‘as is’ but would be prepared to accept the return of the £1000 we have paid you and agreement that both parties do not take any further action?

I think this represents the only chance for us both to fairly put this whole unfortunate business behind us, without further pain.

Should this not be of interest to you, I will be vigorously defending your claim and will be making a counter claim to get all of our money back plus, if possible, the interest and daily amount of £7.50 requested of us and any other fees deemed appropriate.

Yours sincerely

[MissFM]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Hi all. Below is the letter I have written to send. This may be difficult for you to follow, given you haven't read previous letters. I hope that most answers give a fairly good idea of the accusation that they were a response to.

He told us that there was no point going for outline plan first. Be that as it may, I would suspect that the excess height of the building alone (in his original plans) may have presented a problem with planning (it often does).

After looking through all the correspondence, it seems he did send a letter, but it was not signed/agreed, as he suggested. Let me know your thoughts:

Thanks for your last letter dated 18^th October 2013. I find myself yet again having to write solely to address the false claims made in your letter:

1)You claim to have it on record that my cousin, Mr ****, told you that we “enjoyed messing people about, and that we had a long history of it”. I have since spoken to Mr ****, who strongly denies ever having said this and was quite unhappy that you would make such a thing up to be used against his own cousin and aunt. What’s more, I challenge you to find a single person who could vouch for my mother or I ever having ‘messed someone around’. I take a very dim view of this ‘telling tales’ in light of the severity of the situation.

2)You did indeed offer to alter the last drawing but this clearly was to refer to at a later date as at this point communication had broken down because of your (manor) manner and rudeness in the weeks previous to this. I’m sure that you were fully aware upon sending the letter that we would not wish to engage with you further.

3)You have now referred in 2 letters to a conversation where I (apparently) allegedly agreed the plans subject to a few minor alterations. We both know this to be untrue. I told you that I was happy with the internal layout subject to some not so minor alterations (change to lounge, kitchen, bedrooms and internal walls, inclusion of a downstairs toilet, removal of the chimney and addition of more windows) but told you that the dimensions and the appearance of the building were, and I quote “not what we wanted” nor in accordance with our detailed specification.

4)Please stop referring to your 7 site visits and 14 hours of time spent, as this is not the case. I would however like to apologise for saying it was only 4 visits. Upon further consideration, this was 5, as I had overlooked your very short visit to drop off the planning books. This would not affect the initial estimate of 5 hours of time spent with us by more than 15 minutes or so. I would like to also state that much of the overall time was spent listening to your views on a range of matters including WW2, government policies and your previous marriage.

I must say that I was flabbergasted when I returned home from work on Wednesday to find a claim form from Northampton County Court stating that you were now taking legal action to pursue £1000 which you believe we owe you. It is surely not a coincidence that this was issued 6 days after my last letter stating my intention to start legal action to reclaim the £1000 we have paid you. This was obviously done to ‘strike first’ as you had not previously mentioned any desire to do so, nor had you sent a "letter before action", a legal requirement I believe.

In your letter dated 2^nd October 2013, you state “previous drawings were completed up to planning submission stage, as was originally agreed in writing”. I request that you produce this document that we allegedly agreed/signed, immediately. It does not exist. What I have is a letter dated 17^th June 13, that was not agreed/signed by us. Please do not refer to documents that do not exist in future. I would also like to point out that no plans were completed to planning submission stage as this implies that we were happy with them and so they were ready to submit, which we were not and are not.

I am genuinely curious on what grounds you believe we owe you £1000? You completely failed to perform the service which we asked you to perform. We gave you a simple set of instructions at the beginning of the process and you completely ignored them. Added to this is the totally unprofessional and rude (manor) manner in which you have acted. This may not be a strictly legal concern but surely some consideration has to be given to this contributing to why we are no longer (wanted) able to continue the relationship.

Moreover, I feel that common sense alone would tell anyone that (after paying out £1000, when we are on a very tight budget) until the situation reached the point of no return, we would have done and did anything we could to resolve problems and successfully complete and submit plans.

Which brings us to the current situation. We now find ourselves communicating exclusively through these ‘I said, you said’ letters and facing time in court and no doubt extensive solicitor fees. I would ask that if you had a better idea, which would avoid a lengthy, time consuming legal exchange, that you let us know now.

This being said, please be aware that I am not interested in leaving things ‘as is’ but would be prepared to accept the return of the £1000 advance we (have) paid youin utmost good faith and a mutual agreement that (both parties do not) neither party take any further action(?).

I think this represents the only chance for us both to fairly put this whole unfortunate business behind us, without further pain.

Should this not be of interest to you, I will be vigorously defending your claim and will be making a counter claim to get all of our money back plus, (if possible, the) interest (and daily amount of £7.50 requested of us) and any other fees deemed appropriate.

Yours sincerely

Hi James,

I have taken the liberty of making a few suggestions, hope you don't mind (inc manor/manner typos lol). It's a good letter, from the heart, truthful and cathartic - whether it's in your best interests legally to include the emotional non-essentials, your solicitor will advise - it may need pruning. x

[Red Jim]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Hi MissFM. Many thanks for your suggestions and taking the time to give them. I have taken all on board.

I just hope that if we do need to go to court, that they reach the right verdict. I have no doubt that he will have created a completely false version of events and paperwork to support his claim.

Fingers crossed I guess!

James

[enquirer]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Don't forget the £18 per hour that you can claim as costs for dealing with this matter.

[PlanB]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Don't forget the £18 per hour that you can claim as costs for dealing with this matter.

Costs are not awarded in the Small Claims Court even if you win a claim. Any claim for less then £10k is allocated to the Small Claims track. So the OP will not be able to claim any costs :nono:

[PlanB]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

my mother and I decided to seek planning permission to build a small detached house next to our current house on our existing plot of land.

. . . We agreed to a sum of £1000 up front (which we paid at this time) and a further £1000 upon completion and he gave us a copy of his T & C's.

I have returned home from work today to find a Claim form from Northampton County Court advising me that he has started court proceedings against us to reclaim the remaining £1000 he believes we owe him.

I'm afraid I have a completely different take on this. What I'm seeing is a possible case of *artistic differences*. I have been a property developer for many years and the relationship between an architect and the client is built entirely on communication, expectations and what is lawfully permissible which is not always possible or desirable to the client. Compromise is the name of the game in property development. You described your ideal home and he came up with something completely different. Maybe your vision would never have got passed the planning department or building control. He's offered to design something more appropriate and you have refused his offer because he wants to charge you more. What does it say in those Ts & Cs about his fees?

The most important thing is you have a county court summons which needs to be dealt with never mind all this letter writing malarkey. You have to tick the box (online) or write to the court to acknowledge service stating your intention to defend the claim within 14 days. If you don't then the claimant can get a default judgement against you.

Once you file your defence the court will offer you the option of mediation. I see this situation as a classic case for mediation in order to avoid the trauma of going to court. Going to court is a trauma to be avoided.

He gave you his Ts & Cs. You paid him money on receipt of his Ts & Cs. I expect this means you entered into a legal contract which is all a judge will care about.

[PlanB]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

After looking through all the correspondence, it seems he did send a letter, but it was not signed/agreed, as he suggested.

Can you post up a copy of the letter. Some TOBs say that they will be deemed to be accepted in 7/14/21 days unless you make written objection. Some say payment is deemed to be acceptance of the TOBs. You admit you paid him £1,000. What do these TOBs say about acceptance of those TOBs?

[enquirer]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Costs are not awarded in the Small Claims Court even if you win a claim. Any claim for less then £10k is allocated to the Small Claims track. So the OP will not be able to claim any costs

You can - just don't expect to make a fortune.

http://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/solici...all-claims.htm

[PlanB]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

You can - just don't expect to make a fortune.

http://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/solici...all-claims.htm

That must be an old link since it refers to the Small Claims Court limit being £5k when it was raised to £10k in April 2013. However, it does refer to *unreasonableness* which is usually the only reason that either party can claim costs in the SCC and even then it's at the DJ's discretion not an automatic right.

As the link says the costs are usually limited to 'court costs'. I didn't want to give the OP a false sense of security that he could charge £18 per hour for his personal efforts. Likewise if he loses this case the Claimant is unlikely to get an order for him to pay his costs. It's a risk which works both ways. It could increase the OP's problems if he proceeds to court.

[Red Jim]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Thanks for your input and opinions PlanB.

Regarding your first message, does this mean that neither party can claim costs?

I would be only to pleased to enter mediation to reach a mutually acceptable agreement and avoid going to court.

James

[Red Jim]

Re: Court claim - House building plans

Some TOBs say that they will be deemed to be accepted in 7/14/21 days unless you make written objection. Some say payment is deemed to be acceptance of the TOBs. You admit you paid him £1,000. What do these TOBs say about acceptance of those TOBs?

There is nothing in the letter or TOB that say they will be deemed acceptable after a certain period of time or payment. They just state the following:

Should for any reason a client cancel a project after work has commenced, a fee will be charged commensurate with the amount of work produced at the time of cancellation i.e quarter, half or three quarters of the drawing work produced.

This, to me at least, is still irrelevant, as the drawings he produced completely ignored the verbal specification that we gave upon paying the £1000 and starting work.

As I said previously, it is my belief that both parties entered into an oral contract that work would be done in accordance with our specification. He completely ignored this and then became rude and aggressive when we told him that the plans he had created were not what we wanted.

James