Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

**FlamingParrot** · 8th June 2013, 20:23:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

First of all, a creditor can't just 'register a CCJ'. They will have to issue court papers first. You are right to think about this because if you own property in the UK, upon obtaining a CCJ they can also apply to for a charging order on your property. A CCJ or even a charge wouldn't have any impact on your tenant or cause them any hassles, but you wouldn't want one if you can help it.

The easiest way to handle this would be to make an arrangement with your tenant to have your post forwarded to you new home abroad, you may want to offer to pay them a bit more than just the postage.

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 13:32:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Thanks for the reply, sorry I wasn't clear about registering a CJJ (wrong term). I was simply referring to the fact that because the award is a ET award and is therefore uncontested (unlike a debt issue) then its a formality, I realize that they will still have to submit court papers with my address on it etc.

My concern is that even though I have informed them that I no longer live at the property I own they will still use this address as it is the only UK address they have, then they have obtained a CCJ they will use the HCEO to be a nuisance and upset my tenant at the registered CJJ address.

My understanding is that I could then get this judgement set aside if I can show that a) I informed them of my address change and b) can proved I wasn't there but I'd rather avoid the CJJ in the first place.

Am I understanding this correctly?

**Eloise01** · 10th June 2013, 14:04:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

That appears, on the face of it, to be a slightly different story than you have told elsewhere. You have said that the issue with getting a CCJ against you is that you intend to obtain credit / a loan, in order to pay it. It is in your own interests, however you intend to pay, to do so quickly, because interest is already accruing on the amount due, and will continue to do so; and since this is a tribunal costs award, that interest will never cease to accrue. And they do not need to obtain a CCJ - the HCEO can be asked asked directly to enforce the ruling. This is a court ruling - there is no need for a further court ruling for them to do so. The likely long term outcome on this is that since you have assets in the UK, regardless of where you are living, the interest will be allowed to accrue for a time, possibly some time, and then they will go after your assets.

**Eloise01** · 10th June 2013, 14:30:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

PS. Under the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act the UK has reciprocal arrangements with Australia to enforce court judgements, and as such your creditor can register this debt against you in Australia with the Austrailian courts, and you can be pursued for it there as well as here. The employer / solicitor who has obtained this judgement has six years to do so.

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 15:39:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Hi Eloise,

Thanks for your reply, please can you reference the other place I have mentioned this issue and why you consider it to be different? Also is there any reason why you mentioned Australia? Although I note your useful information about this country in particular.

**FlamingParrot** · 10th June 2013, 15:45:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Originally posted by TLOR View Post

Thanks for the reply, sorry I wasn't clear about registering a CJJ (wrong term). I was simply referring to the fact that because the award is a ET award and is therefore uncontested (unlike a debt issue) then its a formality, I realize that they will still have to submit court papers with my address on it etc.

This is a totally different story! My reply was based on the assumption that you had debts in the UK and you were worried about them obtaining a CCJ against you by default in your absence. An ET award is not the same as a loan or credit card debt, as Eloise noted above. Without having the full facts, we can't provide accurate replies.

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 16:35:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't attempting to mislead! According to ET terminology I believe I am now the debtor and the respondents are the creditor, its not in my interest to confuse! :S

My intention is to avoid the CCJ not the debt, let me be clear on that now as I know how tough these boards can be and I sense some skepticism already!

My understanding is still that a CCJ can not be obtained (including a transfer of an ET award) if the person named in the judgement does not reside in England or Wales, is this not correct?

With regards to HCEO, my understanding again is that there role is to 1st transfer the ET judgement first to the County Court and then tranfer it up to the High Court for a writ, wouldn't it be the case that this wouldn't be possible if they couldn't obtain the CCJ first because of the address issue above?

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 16:39:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

My understanding is that this can only be done once a CCJ has been obtained, and only to countries with the agreement in place. My question is about avoiding the CCJ in the first place because of the effect this would have on my UK credit and hence ability to pay the debt. Is it not the case that ET judgements do not expire and therefore the 6 year rule does not apply?

**Eloise01** · 10th June 2013, 17:22:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

I am surprised the OP can't recall the other place they have posted - perhaps there is more than one? http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=4640433

You are relying either on very outdated information, or the standard law of debt (which is not my area). This is not a debt in the sense that you mean - it is a court order. HCEO's are authorised to directly enforce the rulings of Employment Tribunals (and ACAS settlements too). They obtain a writ of fieri fascias (which will cost you an additional sum - £60 I believe) - there is no further "judgement" because a judgement has been made and that judgement is that you pay up. As I have already stated quite clearly, the costs award will accrue substantial interest - about 8% or so I believe is now the going rate. The process was tightened up (and speeded) up quite considerably a couple of years ago as a result of non-payment.

I am aware that there is a myth that UK court judgements cannot be enforced overseas. This is simply not true - there have been numerous employment tribunal findings against employers not residing in the UK, most famously, one against the US government! If a UK court has jurisdiction, the current location of one party is not relevant, and where reciprocal arrangements exist, a claim can be lodged in the relevant courts abroad. Whether they are prepared to go to that trouble is a different matter, although, since you have assets in the UK (I think at least two properties - the one that you are intending to rent out, and presumably the one that you are renting to your sister? It wasn't clear whether you had gone ahead with your intentions to try to obtain a mortgage on your parents property?) the easiest thing to do, if you and any fluid assets are missing, would be to obtain a charging order on your property. Since the amount owed would continue to accrue interest it is only a matter of time before they could take further action to force the sale of the asset, which would cause your tenant(s) considerable "nuisance" and "upset". And of course such action would considerably increase your debt further.

And am I sceptical? Yes, very. Because in the first place, on your other thread you said "My plan is to get a loan to pay it as it's not life altering and I would rather avoid the CCJ due to property interests" - I haven't ever taken out a loan, but if you are creditworthy, then my friends assure me that it isn't difficult and takes very little time. Because in another thread you say "my notice period is 3 months and my last day in the office will be June 30th (minus holiday due). The reason I have resigned (and my Fiance) is because we are/were planning on moving to Australia," (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...4584573&page=5), which does not sound awfully like you are doing anything but playing for time to get out of the country because you believe an order can't be enforced against you when you leave. And because you forgot to mention to anyone on the first thread above that you are leaving the country in what, two weeks or so, or that you had resigned your job - which would not make a loan impossible, but it may seem a little less likely, mightn't it, if they knew you had no employment in the UK and were planning to leave the country??? So yes, sceptical.

And I haven't even begun to mention how almost impossible it is to get costs awarded against someone in an employment tribunal, so you must have pulled out a lot of stops to annoy the hell out of the judges to get into that spot in the first place - employment tribunal judges go seriously out of their way to warn people that they are being vexatious / litigatious and stand in peril of costs being awarded. So I am somewhere in between sceptical in the extreme that you are doing anything except trying to get out of paying, and re-arranging the letters in your user name to TROL(L).

**CleverClogs** · 10th June 2013, 17:39:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Originally posted by Eloise01 View Post

I am surprised

No, dear Eloise, you may be astonished or astounded, but you have not (yet) been surprised.

That might happen if someone were to creep up on you and pinch your bottom. :grin:

And I haven't even begun to mention how almost impossible it is to get costs awarded against someone in an employment tribunal, so you must have pulled out a lot of stops to annoy the hell out of the judges to get into that spot in the first place - employment tribunal judges go seriously out of their way to warn people that they are being vexatious / litigitious and stand in peril of costs being awarded. So I am somewhere in between sceptical in the extreme that you are doing anything except trying to get out of paying, and re-arranging the letters in your user name to TROL(L).

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 17:52:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions, thats probably the most hate filled response I have ever seen on a forum post!

All I can say is it's a good job that you aren't an employment judge or there would be a whole lot more people in my predicament, for the record cost awards have dramatically increased and we received ours due to severe lack of experience and understanding of the law.

I don't have to justify my credit situation to you but it certainly isn't as easy as yours, I will most likely have to obtain a secured loan which certainly isn't a quick fix, there is also the issue that I am imminently about to leave the property so would need an address, again not easy and not something I can do with a CCJ!

It is clear you have already judged me (wrongly!) but maybe you can help others by posting some references to the advice you give?

But thank you for confirming that standard law of debt isn't your area of expertise.

My understanding of a TROL(L) would be somebody that intentionally attacks others on a forum when they are simply trying to post and ask for advice, I will let others read this thread and decide whom is whom.

I appreciate all advice but if anyone could shed some light that isn't sat on an extremely high horse or spends their spare time trying to pick apart peoples innocent questions for their own personal fulfillment I would very much appreciate it.

**Eloise01** · 10th June 2013, 18:15:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Oh dear. You are going to be very disappointed. Not only am I a very experienced lawyer, with three decades of employment law experience, but - ahem - I have again (ie. not for the first time) been asked to become an employment tribunal judge. I know perfectly well why tribunals award costs, and whilst you are correct and they are increasingly happening, they are still almost unheard of and NEVER made because someone lacks experience or understanding of the law. They are awarded after vexatious and /or litigatious claims, and only after a warning as to the likelihood of costs has been made by the judge (s).

**TLOR** · 10th June 2013, 18:21:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Maybe when you become a "judge", I would suggest you try to refrain from pre-judging or god help us all

**CleverClogs** · 10th June 2013, 18:27:PM

Re: Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?

Originally posted by TLOR View Post

thats probably the most hate filled response I have ever seen on a forum post!

My, what a sheltered life you must have led !

All I can say is it's a good job that you aren't an employment judge or there would be a whole lot more people in my predicament,

I doubt that there could be many people who seem to be so deliberately obtuse.

for the record cost awards have dramatically increased and we received ours due to severe lack of experience and understanding of the law.

Do you mean that the Tribunal just would not accept your statement of the law?

I am imminently about to leave the property so would need an address, again not easy and not something I can do with a CCJ!

Fiddlesticks!

You have an ET judgement against you, not a CCJ - and Monomark House don't care as long as they're paid.

I appreciate all advice but if anyone could shed some light that isn't sat on an extremely high horse or spends their spare time trying to pick apart peoples innocent questions for their own personal fulfillment I would very much appreciate it.

:violin: :violin::violin::violin::violin::violin::violin::v iolin::violin::violin::violin:

Informing potential CCJ creditor of new address?