Copy of Credit Agreement

[coming up for air]

I have received a copy of a Credit Agreement from 1998 for a Lloyds Mastercard. The address details are clear but the signature and date of signature, along with a section with terms and conditions is very blurred. Can anyone tell me if the copy needs to be readable in order for the solicitors to use to obtain a judgement against me? I'm also confused about what information should be on this agreement. Should it be signed by the bank too - and should it show specific information in relation to the interest rate etc? It's just a one page application form with a few terms and conditions at the bottom which I can't read as the scanned copy they sent is so bad. Any advice gratefully received. Many thanks

[Amethyst]

Have they sent you accompanying terms and conditions as well ?

They should send a legible copy so you can check the terms/rates etc ( even if they just type out the wording from the agreement - IF they can read it or find an identical copy to type up ) but the CCA 1974 requires the original to have been legible.

If you can blank out your details it might be easier to tell if it's going to suffice.

Did they sent a statement of the account and terms as varied or JUST that agreement/application?

It's more likely to be incomplete and refer to terms that they haven't provided.

[coming up for air]

Thanks Amethyst. They haven't sent any terms with this copy. Another copy arrived today which is darker and you can make out a signature, and the date, but the terms are very blurred still, and I can just make out that is says on this agreement / application form that the terms are attached on the following page - which they haven't sent me. I have received previous statements of accounts but nothing with this letter. Also, my middle name is spelt incorrectly (not sure if this matters - clutching at straws!). I will try and upload the doc. Can I just ask another question? I've received the pre-action paperwork for this back in Feb and I replied to say I wasn't sure if I was liable. They placed chasing on hold while they looked for paperwork. Now I think they have sent me all they would need to I wondered if my best option would be to try and negotiate a reduced settlement or have I left that too late ?- or try and negotiate a monthly payment. The very last thing I need now is a CCJ. It's being chased by Arrow. via restons sols . Thanks

[Amethyst]

They will need the rest of the agreement however that's normally the easier bit to find / reconstruct.

If if you want to settle and are in a position to do so then you could make a goodwill offer to bring the matter to a close for a % of the debt reminding them that what they have provided ( twice ) is incomplete and as such doesn't comply with cca 1974 s78(1) and is this unenforceable under s78(6)

are there other issues / disputes involved ?
When did the card default / when was last payment ?

[coming up for air]

Thank you Amethyst. I have received another letter today from Arrow Global saying now all the documents I'd requested (copy of credit agreement, terms & conditions and a coy of the originator's statements) in my reply to the letter before action sent in Feb have been sent to me (they imply they have sent these documents at various different times, the credit agreement being the final doc sent to me last week). They are now asking me to "provide a proposal for repayment or they will continue collection activity which is this case may include litigation". They have told me I need to deal directly with Restons unless my question relates to the document request.
I agree they have sent me a copy of the credit agreement, but I don't think I have received the T&C's (but as you say earlier, perhaps this isn't important as they could quite easily reconstruct.) I am also unsure what they mean by a copy of the originator's statements. I have a copy of a statement of periodic account sent to me by Arrow back in April 2018 showing the last years activity. Is this what they mean?
I could no longer afford to keep up repayments on this or other debts in July 2014. in September 2014 I agreed a payment plan with stepchange which I was able to keep to until August 2015, this is when the last (reduced) payment was made. I haven't paid anything since. The debt was purchased by arrow in Feb 17 and they issued a pre action letter to me in Feb this year.
My question at this point I guess is, can I write back to Arrow and ask for them to send me all the documents again as I haven't got the T&C's? what would this do apart from delay the inevitable? even if they stop chasing while they send me this - once they do produce it I'm still going to have to do something about this as it looks like they could go for a CCJ.
Does there come a point where it's no longer possible to negotiate a monthly settlement? We also lost our house when our financial problems started back in 2012 and I'm currently renting so they couldn't obtain a charging order. I could only afford a small monthly repayment - is there a rule of thumb as to how long they will accept payments to stretch over? it's an £8k debt. If I can get a family member to help with a short settlement, again is there a likely figure Restons will accept given that they do seem to have all they need to take me to court. Sorry for all the questions. I'm so stressed with the constant worry of trying to second guess Restons and end up dong the wrong thing, e.g inadvertenly admitting liability by offering a settlement etc and therefore making it even more likely they could obtain a judgement. I appreciate I've taken up loads of your time already with this and I may be asking questions that no-body can answer!
Thanks

[Amethyst]

Ahhh don't worry - it's better to have the full picture.

can you do a pic of the letter you got today and send it me ( admin@legalbeagles.info )and we'll have a look at putting a reply together ( and I'll reply properly to your post when I switch to laptop from my phone )

[coming up for air]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this. I'll scan the letter and send it over in the morning along with the copy of the CA. Thanks again.

[Amethyst]

It's weird how the letter rambles on about being allowed to send recon agreements to satisfy a CCA request but then send a direct copy of the original agreement, that is illegible, and that is incomplete.
They also refer only to section 77 - which is for Fixed Sum Agreements ( ie a Loan ) rather than section 78 - which is running credit agreement ( which is a credit card - which this is )

There is PPI on the Account so you could look into reclaiming anything you have paid on that.

So as well as being illegible, it is missing prescribed terms ( because it is incomplete )

At the top of that pretty unreadable bit of the terms it does say " This agreement is subject ....... Lloyds Bank Mastercard Conditions of ....."


sooo...as an idea/starting point for discussion

Dear Arrow Global,

Reference: Lloyds Banks Plc ( xxxxxxxx )

Thank you for your letter dated 29/11/2018 and the attached copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account. No acknowledgement of the above debt is made.

I am somewhat confused by your letter ;

Firstly the account detailed above appears to be a Credit Card account which is classified as a running-account credit agreement and falls under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, not section 77 as detailed in your letter.

Secondly the copy of the agreement that you have enclosed consists of a single sheet, which appears to be an application, and which is, in the majority, illegible. The agreement is also incomplete and does not contain the prescribed terms pursuant to Schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, nor does it appear to be properly executed pursuant to s.61 CCA 1974.

In addition, your letter states that you have previously sent " a copy of the terms and conditions " and " a copy of the originators statement". I'm afraid that I have not received these documents so if you could resend them it would be appreciated.

You also discuss, at length, the OFT guidance on Unenforceable Credit Agreements with regards to 'reconstituted agreements' however You have not provided a reconstitued agreement, which would be helpful as the document you have provided is illegible.

For the avoidance of doubt I have copied the relevant paragraphs of section 78 for your reference below;

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

(1)The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a)the state of the account, and

(b)the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

(c)the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(2)If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)(c), he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

4)Where running-account credit is provided under a regulated agreement, the creditor shall give the debtor statements in the prescribed form, and with the prescribed contents—

(a)showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, the state of the account at regular intervals of not more than twelve months, and

(b)where the agreement provides, in relation to specified periods, for the making of payments by the debtor, or the charging against him of interest or any other sum, showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer the state of the account at the end of each of those periods during which there is any movement in the account.

(6)If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement

I look forward to receiving the documents pursuant to my formal request. You will be aware that the current position is that your failure to comply with section 78(1) has the consequence that you are not entitled to enforce the agreement.

You will recall that I was sent a Letter of Claim back in February 2018 to which I responded stating I did not know if I owed the alleged debt. I'm afraid that my position has not changed. I requested more information in my response including the agreement, the default notice, the notice of assignment and copies of statements from the original creditor.

I did receive a copy of a statement of periodic account in April 2018 from yourselves showing the last years activity, however as the account apparently defaulted over six years ago, this has not actually given me any further details as to how the amount being claimed has been arrived at.

Until these documents are received so that I am in a position to fully assess any liability I may have to you I shall not be providing any proposal for repayment and you should be aware that any claim brought will be strongly defended.

I look forward to hearing from you.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't know if you do have any other issues that need resolving, if so add those in, eg you require a full breakdown and statements from the original creditor as you do not recognise the amount being requested.

Now, you could at the last paragraph say something like ' in the interests of goodwill I would be open to negotiate a reduced amount settlement" or " In the interests of goodwill, and without any admission of liability, in order to bring this matter to an end, I would be willing to settle this alleged account with a full and final settlement of £2400 payable over 24 months with the first payment of £100 to be made on 28th January 2019 and continuing on the same date each month to a final payment of £100 to be made on 28th December 2020" ( check my maths there - it's 30% on £8000 spilt over 24 months -and only do that kind of offer IF it is affordable and you want to do it to ensure this doesn't go to court )

[Amethyst]

btw is this the kind of 'statement' you received in April
cabot statement.jpg ?

[coming up for air]

Thank you so much. I just had no idea it was possible to go back to them with this and you won't believe how relieved I feel that I do still have some options maybe! The statement I received are in a similar format - very simply listing any transactions from April 17 -to April 181 (of which there were none, so the opening and closing balance is exactly the same. They haven't added any cost yet.) I'll get the letter off to Arrow tomorrow. Should this be sent recorded delivery?

[coming up for air]

Sorry to keep asking for help on this same point - last questions I promise.
You are right - at the top of the very blurred section is does say

" This agreement is subject to Lloyds Bank Mastercard Conditions of use as set out overleaf" Would these be the T&C they are yet to provide in order to make this enforceable? (but they could fairly easily reconstruct these in order to provide an acceptable set of T&C's?) The Credit Limit box on the CA / application they provided isn't filled in either - is this a plus point? I'm just trying to work out if once they've sent a reconstructed version of these and sorted out their admin over the 77/78 issue they could then push for a CCJ, in which case, would they look less favourably on an offer to pay a reduced amount in instalments? It's a gamble I suppose as to whether they can / will bother to produce all the required docs in which case, have I lost the opportunity to settle on a short amount? I just can't work out whether to use suggested ending option 1 in my letter, (I suppose I'm asking if, in your opinion, this will be enforceable) or should I opt for ending 2 and be grateful it's over. (assuming they'd even accept this!) My goal is to settle this without going to court...letter ending option 2 the best bet.. but what happens next if they don't accept the proposed figures? Thanks so much.

[coming up for air]

btw is this the kind of 'statement' you received in April
cabot statement.jpg ?

Hi Amethyst
I've just had a response letter from Arrow Global regarding my request for documents and in response to the letter you kindly helped my put together last December. They have stated in this letter that hey have included:
A copy of the agreement - They have, but it's the same bad photocopied version of the application form
A copy of the Terms and Conditions- They have not sent a separate T& C doc . On the application form it does state that "this agreement is subject to the Lloyds Bank mastercard conditions of use as set out overleaf.." but they have not included any other pages, so I don't have the "overleaf".
They have also include a paragraph that says:
"a. The account is in default
b. The total sum outstanding is £xxxx; and
c. The amount which will become payable comprise interest and costs, depending on what enforcement action is taken against your client;"
- is this a paragraph that they've copied an pasted in by mistake?

Can a buy a bit more time by asking for the copy of the terms and conditions or can they go ahead an enforce without these? am I correct in thinking they can't push for enforcement while I'm awaiting docs?

They've also sent a print out of statements from 2015-2009, but the account was actually opened in 1997. Do they only have to provide statements for the last x years?

If you have any time to give a view on this I'd be so grateful.

[Amethyst]

Oops sounds like they may have cocked up a little there, any chance you can do a pic of the letter for me? We should reply so be nice to put a bit of sarcastic response cause of their error in the reply

They know they need to provide all the terms and a better recon of the agreement. They can TRY to enforce, but you have a defence if they can't comply with the s.78 request. ( enforce in CCA 1974 terms has been ruled to mean ' get judgment' not 'bring a claim' (unfortunately and irritatingly )

They don't need to produce ALL the statements, last 6 years is usually the limit. Anything weird on those that they have sent? PPI ? insane charges? the final figure matches ish what is being claimed ?

[coming up for air]

Thanks so much - I agree It would be satisfying to point out their admin error! I've emailed over the letter. I've had a quick flick through the statements (there are many pages!) and can't see anything untoward. Thanks for the clarification re the statements provided and the possible defence. I'm learning so much as I go along here.

[Amethyst]

This is the tremendous letter...
assignedbyfail.png

and they have included the exact SAME agreement as previously, still without any terms and conditions.

lloyds 98 mastercard application.png


Love how in the letter they waffle on about the recon rules but haven't even bothered to provide a recon.