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Hi, I'd really appreciate some input and to understand my options better here within the few days I have in which to file a response.
I appreciate this is quite a long first post - but would presume it's best to provide the proper context to me receiving a claim for ~£6000 for work that was never authorised\quoted and completely inadequate, not required and unsafe. Any help\recommendations much appreciated.
Thanks
I have received a small claims court letter (addressed to me and my wife) from a plumber relating to work at our residential property.
Here is a summary of what’s happened.
I called our plumber, and over Facetime he diagnosed a broken valve near to our boiler. He said it was a simple fix and he would come and change it. He fixed it, did not mention anything about cost and then left. It did not resolve anything.
He then subsequently returned on multiple occasions each time promising he would resolve the issue. He never mentioned anything about cost or received any instruction to do anything – only that he wanted to just resolve the issue for us.
On more than one of these visits I noticed that the temperature on the boiler was rising quickly and then cutting out and dropping out again before repeating this sequence. He told me repeatedly this was because of the flow of water and the sludge preventing the system from working properly.
He changed the hot water pump for a more powerful one which did nothing, and then told us the system was totally backed up with sludge that prevented any water from circulating and needed power flushing as well as multiple treatments with a cleaner that required draining the system, etc. (bearing in mind this system is only 6 years old).
After approximately 2 months and it now being November and the lack of heating becoming a real problem, he told us not to worry and once going to fix the problem once and for all with a homemade ‘manifold’.
This didn’t make sense to me as the system was only 6 years old and working before – but he told us it was required and would definitely resolve our issues (it didn’t).
We simply just wanted\needed heating & hot water. On top of the stresses of lockdown (both my wife and I have had to shield due to pre-existing health conditions), I was now dealing with pneumonia and trying to avoid contracting Covid – a lack of heating and a plumber coming and going was certainly not helping this.
I was very surprised that this ‘solution’ saw the plumber totally remove large parts of our old system and replace with a system that had 5 separate pumps and involved significant changes to the pipework.
I immediately asked why any of this is necessary and if it was then the system that he originally installed was not fit for purpose which did not make sense considering we’d had hot water and heating for 6 years (with no problems to having both at the same time – other than the leaks).
At several points I also asked why the boiler temperature was rising and falling which included me sending a video of this (which I still have).
He never mentioned cost and told me not to worry about it as at least the problem would now be fixed.
It was now December – and cold – but from the very first night it was apparent that the new system was incredibly noisy. On one ‘zone’ we simply have a few bathroom radiators and any time the heating is turned on we can essentially hear jets of water being fired around the house.
We did at least now have the ability to have both hot water and heating and with a lockdown Christmas approaching was just glad to have some kind of resolution given this had already been a very stressful 3-month process.
The temperature on our boiler was still rising\dropping however although I thought the best course of action would be to bring in a new plumber to check things over in the New Year as by this point we had totally lost confidence in anything being said.
About 10 days later in mid-December I suddenly noticed our smart electricity meter was running incredibly high and we’d suddenly spent £600 on electricity. A little troubleshooting later and I’d realised our plumber had simply turned our immersion heaters on for the 2 hot water tanks and this had been the source of our hot water for 10 days (nothing to do with the boiler).
I turned the immersion heaters off and immediately our problems returned. This process had taken almost 4 months and we were back at the beginning – except with a ridiculously noisy system we didn’t ask for that fundamentally hadn’t changed anything.
I’d still at no point been presented with any costs or authorised any work. All of my questions to the plumber were based around why a 6-year-old system would have any issues like this and believed similar to past experiences with him that a huge amount – if not all of this - was being done under warranty.
He even intimated during this process that he was really sorry and had never experienced a job like this, he also said (and I have a recording of him saying over WhatsAspp) that he wouldn’t charge for labour that didn’t fix the problem.
He would never at any point provide paperwork or confirm any instruction – but simply act as if it was his house to do as he pleased.
In mid-December – with me now being completely frustrated (and still very difficult to arrange anyone to visit our house with both my wife and I needing to shield), I started investigating and phoning new plumbers using CheckaTrade and Facebook recommendations in our local area.
Once I finally got through to someone, even over the phone they immediately said it sounds like the issue was the boiler and probably the heat exchanger.
I got back in touch with our original plumber and said I think the problem had always been the heat exchanger that simply needed changing. He told me to get in touch with the manufacturer directly.
He then followed up by saying his whole family had received a positive COVID test and he wouldn’t be able to do anything.
I explained the problem to the manufacturer (Worcester Bosch) and they sent a replacement heat exchanger. I found a new local plumber who came and changed the heat exchanger in a few hours. This immediately resolved the problem, the boiler stopped going up and down and I subsequently received and immediately paid a bill of ~£450.
Our new plumber confirmed that he couldn’t quite believe what system had been installed and that it was very inefficient and massively overkill. He said we now had 5 pumps working to achieve what could easily be done with 1 (which was our original system).
It was also apparent that not everything had been put back correctly – and all the wiring for our hot water tank thermostats were now disconnected. Our new plumber said with nothing to regulate the temperature the tanks were at risk of running too hot and we could potentially burn ourselves with the water coming out of them.
I was still now concerned that the pumps were massive overkill and within a week of our system now working properly (apart from the excess noise that we cannot live with) the hot water tank valve failed and we lost all hot water.
I assessed the situation and saw there was a valve to isolate the hot water tank (there are 2 hot water tanks) but decided I did not have enough confidence to use it considering my now total lack of faith in the ability of our original plumber. I essentially noticed the valve was in between the hot water tank and the hot water tank expansion vessel and it didn’t feel right.
When our new plumber returned, he said my inclination was right and with no thermostat connected and a powerful pump delivering a ready supply direct from the boiler that it was about as dangerous situation as could be engineered in a closed system – potentially perfectly primed to explode.
From the original installation which was working fine prior to the boiler issue, my system has been totally changed (significant change to our pipework, etc.) that would take days (and significant cost) to remove the new pumps installed as well as put back the old system.
I did not want or authorise this at all and it was only installed because the original plumber totally missed the source of the problem (the heat exchanger which should have cost ~£450).
We also had 4 months with almost no heating or hot water – which was a seriously challenging time.
I’ve also received an electricity bill elevated by ~£400 for the immersion heaters.
Whilst the original plumber was here, we also had some rubbish clearance he said he would help with (early December) as he had 2 labourers available. On this occasion my wife confirmed she would be happy to pay £250 to remove a load of rubbish from the garden.
Before we knew what happened, they’d taken 1 load of rubbish followed by 2 loads of topsoil – when I asked, they said this would be the same price (£250/load)
I said to our plumber in our kitchen ‘Are you insane, I only agreed to 1 load of rubbish that needed properly disposing of – why would you do that without confirming with me first’.
I agreed that they could continue moving the topsoil to my parent’s property 1 mile away (presuming I was now only paying for labour).
I subsequently found out that the labour element of this work was £400 (2 men over 2 days at £100\day), and I was also presented with a bill for 7 loads at £50 to my parents’ house (£350), and £750 for the initial 3 loads – so a total of ~£1500.
I estimate this work to be ~£750 in value (whilst I only authorised £250).
The plumber’s labourers actually did a good job here – but I was presented with a bill of £1500.
I probably could have resolved this amicably if not for the horrendous situation that occurred with the plumbing which led to a relationship breakdown.
Finances
Other than the £250 for a single load of garden clearance I did not authorise any other cost for any work at any time (either verbally or in writing) – both my wife and I have been present the whole time as we’ve been forced to stay home for 2020.
We fully resolved the original issue early in January with our new plumber for ~£450.
I had a message from our old Plumber at the end of January saying he hadn’t been working because he contracted COVID and wanted to settle the bill because he was desperately in need of money. He asked if I wanted to keep the new system or wanted him to put the old one back.
I responded saying please provide a breakdown for the garden clearance (hence the figures above) but that we needed to talk about the plumbing because a catalogue of errors had been made by him and we had been left with an inadequate system - essentially against our will without ever authorising him.
He responded by text saying he will only charge for the [probably not required] power flushing (~£500) and the [totally unnecessary] custom built manifold system (~£1250) but would forgive the [totally unnecessary\made up] ~£2500 labour charge.
With the [over the top] garden clearance charge of £1500 this would total ~£3300.
He sent this request mid-March with his bank details and again a week later, followed a day later saying he will file a court claim against me and my wife.
I responded to essentially explain the above (obviously it was shorter as he was aware of the context).
I confirmed that I would not be paying for something that was not authorised and totally unrequired and that I needed to assess my options for removing what has been done – whilst also mentioning that he missed the original problem and left my house in an unsafe state. All of this on top of years of problems.
The situation deteriorated from his part and he was not willing to listen to rational points I was making. He said he will present all of ‘my invoices with extra costs’ and that it was a shame that my recently deceased father was not here to see my behaviour (I can confirm my father would be proud of me for not being taken advantage of).
I wrote back (remaining calm throughout) that I would be willing to pay ~£1000 for the garden clearance and ~£500 for the power flushing but morals and principals would prevent me from paying any more – unless instructed by a judge to do so.
I subsequently received an inflated County Court Claim for ~£6000 and have currently have 7 days left to respond.
I have never had an issue that has required court action. I wish to contest it – and believe given the inconvenience and costs I will have to now correct our inadequate heating system I may well need to issue a counterclaim?
I obviously do not relish the situation – but nor do I relish essentially being bullied into this ridiculous situation.
I appreciate this is quite a long first post - but would presume it's best to provide the proper context to me receiving a claim for ~£6000 for work that was never authorised\quoted and completely inadequate, not required and unsafe. Any help\recommendations much appreciated.
Thanks
I have received a small claims court letter (addressed to me and my wife) from a plumber relating to work at our residential property.
Here is a summary of what’s happened.
- 6 years ago during an extension, this person carried out the electrical and plumbing works at our property – completely installing a new electrical\heating system. The full amount totalling approx. £20,000 was paid in stages.
- Since then we have had countless problems that have included 5 separate leaks through different ceilings causing considerable damage (each significant enough to damage the ceilings below), as well as leaks at almost every tap or valve installed as part of our heating system, etc.
- There are various other examples of poor workmanship (fuse board not labelled, etc.) and we later learned of 2 significant issues mentioned below (boiler not adequately serviced at installation and a valve incorrectly fitted that isolates a hot water tank from its expansion vessel. In a closed pressure system this is a significant safety issue capable of causing the hot water tank to explode if the valve is closed – I will get on to this).
- Although totally fed up with this system, at a few points the plumber returned to resolve some of the issues with limited success (tried to stop a leak, tried to fix leaking taps, etc.)
I called our plumber, and over Facetime he diagnosed a broken valve near to our boiler. He said it was a simple fix and he would come and change it. He fixed it, did not mention anything about cost and then left. It did not resolve anything.
He then subsequently returned on multiple occasions each time promising he would resolve the issue. He never mentioned anything about cost or received any instruction to do anything – only that he wanted to just resolve the issue for us.
On more than one of these visits I noticed that the temperature on the boiler was rising quickly and then cutting out and dropping out again before repeating this sequence. He told me repeatedly this was because of the flow of water and the sludge preventing the system from working properly.
He changed the hot water pump for a more powerful one which did nothing, and then told us the system was totally backed up with sludge that prevented any water from circulating and needed power flushing as well as multiple treatments with a cleaner that required draining the system, etc. (bearing in mind this system is only 6 years old).
After approximately 2 months and it now being November and the lack of heating becoming a real problem, he told us not to worry and once going to fix the problem once and for all with a homemade ‘manifold’.
This didn’t make sense to me as the system was only 6 years old and working before – but he told us it was required and would definitely resolve our issues (it didn’t).
We simply just wanted\needed heating & hot water. On top of the stresses of lockdown (both my wife and I have had to shield due to pre-existing health conditions), I was now dealing with pneumonia and trying to avoid contracting Covid – a lack of heating and a plumber coming and going was certainly not helping this.
I was very surprised that this ‘solution’ saw the plumber totally remove large parts of our old system and replace with a system that had 5 separate pumps and involved significant changes to the pipework.
I immediately asked why any of this is necessary and if it was then the system that he originally installed was not fit for purpose which did not make sense considering we’d had hot water and heating for 6 years (with no problems to having both at the same time – other than the leaks).
At several points I also asked why the boiler temperature was rising and falling which included me sending a video of this (which I still have).
He never mentioned cost and told me not to worry about it as at least the problem would now be fixed.
It was now December – and cold – but from the very first night it was apparent that the new system was incredibly noisy. On one ‘zone’ we simply have a few bathroom radiators and any time the heating is turned on we can essentially hear jets of water being fired around the house.
We did at least now have the ability to have both hot water and heating and with a lockdown Christmas approaching was just glad to have some kind of resolution given this had already been a very stressful 3-month process.
The temperature on our boiler was still rising\dropping however although I thought the best course of action would be to bring in a new plumber to check things over in the New Year as by this point we had totally lost confidence in anything being said.
About 10 days later in mid-December I suddenly noticed our smart electricity meter was running incredibly high and we’d suddenly spent £600 on electricity. A little troubleshooting later and I’d realised our plumber had simply turned our immersion heaters on for the 2 hot water tanks and this had been the source of our hot water for 10 days (nothing to do with the boiler).
I turned the immersion heaters off and immediately our problems returned. This process had taken almost 4 months and we were back at the beginning – except with a ridiculously noisy system we didn’t ask for that fundamentally hadn’t changed anything.
I’d still at no point been presented with any costs or authorised any work. All of my questions to the plumber were based around why a 6-year-old system would have any issues like this and believed similar to past experiences with him that a huge amount – if not all of this - was being done under warranty.
He even intimated during this process that he was really sorry and had never experienced a job like this, he also said (and I have a recording of him saying over WhatsAspp) that he wouldn’t charge for labour that didn’t fix the problem.
He would never at any point provide paperwork or confirm any instruction – but simply act as if it was his house to do as he pleased.
In mid-December – with me now being completely frustrated (and still very difficult to arrange anyone to visit our house with both my wife and I needing to shield), I started investigating and phoning new plumbers using CheckaTrade and Facebook recommendations in our local area.
Once I finally got through to someone, even over the phone they immediately said it sounds like the issue was the boiler and probably the heat exchanger.
I got back in touch with our original plumber and said I think the problem had always been the heat exchanger that simply needed changing. He told me to get in touch with the manufacturer directly.
He then followed up by saying his whole family had received a positive COVID test and he wouldn’t be able to do anything.
I explained the problem to the manufacturer (Worcester Bosch) and they sent a replacement heat exchanger. I found a new local plumber who came and changed the heat exchanger in a few hours. This immediately resolved the problem, the boiler stopped going up and down and I subsequently received and immediately paid a bill of ~£450.
Our new plumber confirmed that he couldn’t quite believe what system had been installed and that it was very inefficient and massively overkill. He said we now had 5 pumps working to achieve what could easily be done with 1 (which was our original system).
It was also apparent that not everything had been put back correctly – and all the wiring for our hot water tank thermostats were now disconnected. Our new plumber said with nothing to regulate the temperature the tanks were at risk of running too hot and we could potentially burn ourselves with the water coming out of them.
I was still now concerned that the pumps were massive overkill and within a week of our system now working properly (apart from the excess noise that we cannot live with) the hot water tank valve failed and we lost all hot water.
I assessed the situation and saw there was a valve to isolate the hot water tank (there are 2 hot water tanks) but decided I did not have enough confidence to use it considering my now total lack of faith in the ability of our original plumber. I essentially noticed the valve was in between the hot water tank and the hot water tank expansion vessel and it didn’t feel right.
When our new plumber returned, he said my inclination was right and with no thermostat connected and a powerful pump delivering a ready supply direct from the boiler that it was about as dangerous situation as could be engineered in a closed system – potentially perfectly primed to explode.
From the original installation which was working fine prior to the boiler issue, my system has been totally changed (significant change to our pipework, etc.) that would take days (and significant cost) to remove the new pumps installed as well as put back the old system.
I did not want or authorise this at all and it was only installed because the original plumber totally missed the source of the problem (the heat exchanger which should have cost ~£450).
We also had 4 months with almost no heating or hot water – which was a seriously challenging time.
I’ve also received an electricity bill elevated by ~£400 for the immersion heaters.
Whilst the original plumber was here, we also had some rubbish clearance he said he would help with (early December) as he had 2 labourers available. On this occasion my wife confirmed she would be happy to pay £250 to remove a load of rubbish from the garden.
Before we knew what happened, they’d taken 1 load of rubbish followed by 2 loads of topsoil – when I asked, they said this would be the same price (£250/load)
I said to our plumber in our kitchen ‘Are you insane, I only agreed to 1 load of rubbish that needed properly disposing of – why would you do that without confirming with me first’.
I agreed that they could continue moving the topsoil to my parent’s property 1 mile away (presuming I was now only paying for labour).
I subsequently found out that the labour element of this work was £400 (2 men over 2 days at £100\day), and I was also presented with a bill for 7 loads at £50 to my parents’ house (£350), and £750 for the initial 3 loads – so a total of ~£1500.
I estimate this work to be ~£750 in value (whilst I only authorised £250).
The plumber’s labourers actually did a good job here – but I was presented with a bill of £1500.
I probably could have resolved this amicably if not for the horrendous situation that occurred with the plumbing which led to a relationship breakdown.
Finances
Other than the £250 for a single load of garden clearance I did not authorise any other cost for any work at any time (either verbally or in writing) – both my wife and I have been present the whole time as we’ve been forced to stay home for 2020.
We fully resolved the original issue early in January with our new plumber for ~£450.
I had a message from our old Plumber at the end of January saying he hadn’t been working because he contracted COVID and wanted to settle the bill because he was desperately in need of money. He asked if I wanted to keep the new system or wanted him to put the old one back.
I responded saying please provide a breakdown for the garden clearance (hence the figures above) but that we needed to talk about the plumbing because a catalogue of errors had been made by him and we had been left with an inadequate system - essentially against our will without ever authorising him.
He responded by text saying he will only charge for the [probably not required] power flushing (~£500) and the [totally unnecessary] custom built manifold system (~£1250) but would forgive the [totally unnecessary\made up] ~£2500 labour charge.
With the [over the top] garden clearance charge of £1500 this would total ~£3300.
He sent this request mid-March with his bank details and again a week later, followed a day later saying he will file a court claim against me and my wife.
I responded to essentially explain the above (obviously it was shorter as he was aware of the context).
I confirmed that I would not be paying for something that was not authorised and totally unrequired and that I needed to assess my options for removing what has been done – whilst also mentioning that he missed the original problem and left my house in an unsafe state. All of this on top of years of problems.
The situation deteriorated from his part and he was not willing to listen to rational points I was making. He said he will present all of ‘my invoices with extra costs’ and that it was a shame that my recently deceased father was not here to see my behaviour (I can confirm my father would be proud of me for not being taken advantage of).
I wrote back (remaining calm throughout) that I would be willing to pay ~£1000 for the garden clearance and ~£500 for the power flushing but morals and principals would prevent me from paying any more – unless instructed by a judge to do so.
I subsequently received an inflated County Court Claim for ~£6000 and have currently have 7 days left to respond.
I have never had an issue that has required court action. I wish to contest it – and believe given the inconvenience and costs I will have to now correct our inadequate heating system I may well need to issue a counterclaim?
I obviously do not relish the situation – but nor do I relish essentially being bullied into this ridiculous situation.
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