Can I reject a claim for money if I was never invoiced

[newbieatlaw]

I have received a claim form requesting money for labour and materials for a job I pulled out of. The claim is breach of contract (I won’t go into the details of whether or not the claim is true, it’s complicated). What I am trying to understand is can you really take someone to court when you have never asked for the money? I am not naive enough to think that money wouldn’t be owed if the breach is valid, but surely you have to at least have asked for what you are claiming before going to court?! Seems an unfair approach.

[des8]

There are preaction protocols which should be followed before a court claim is issued.
Is the claim from an individual or a company?

http://www.lawplainandsimple.com/leg...ction-protocol

[newbieatlaw]

Thanks for that, the work was to be a patio and decking area so I believe it is not one of the specific set of pre-action protocols, so the default conditions instead. I am an individual and the claimant is a sole trader (goes by a company name but couldn’t find on companies house).

The last contact was over 2 years ago and no attempt has been made in any form to request a payment of any kind. There was an original quote for the entire works but I had to stop work on day one (the potential breach on my part). So the claims being made have never been requested. I expected to get an invoice or letter or something but it never came. The circumstances of the break down meant I was definitely not going to be in contact with the claimant.

Ive read that not trying to resolve yourself before taking to court will likely mean you are not awarded costs, but is this specifically court and legal costs? I.e. the claim would still continue and the claimant could be awarded what the court thinks is fair? Or would they throw it out and the claimant would need to actually try themselves to get what they are after, then take it to court again if they do not succeed?

[des8]

The claim will continue, but the claimant has not done themselves any favours.
Do you intend to dispute the claim in full, or are you admitting part or all the claim?
Have you considered making an offer?
Are you prepared to negotiate via ADR or court mediation service?

If it reaches a court hearing the court will decide how much you owe on the basis of fact, not fairness

[newbieatlaw]

At the moment I am unsure of whether to reject all or part. My gut tells me that I would reject part. The reason being he is claiming a number of days work but in my opinion he was only on site for about 1 hour before I dismissed him. The other days off site consisted of a day that he said it was too wet to work and a day away where he was sorting out a price for materials which he had already done but for some reason was not able to get any more. For this he decided (without my knowledge) to travel two hours to speak to someone about it. During this time he crashed his van and was unable to make it back to do any work on day two. The trip was unnecessary (could have been handled by phone) and was to resolve dispute in price which had already been agreed and formed part of his quote to me, so I deem this to be work for his own gain (so he didn’t have to make up a shortfall), even if it could be claimed he was doing this for my gain, you couldn’t claim a whole day off site to save what could be £100 (estimate) to be worth while when he is claiming £140 per day against me. So day one he refuses to work, day two is taken up by him repairing a van and performing an unnecessary task. Day three he turns up at 10 am (expected on site around 8-9) and is asked to leave by 11am and asked again in the following hours. Eventually after holding my house keys to ransom , the police are called and eventually we get the keys back via the police (we have a log number).

so my acceptance would be of a number of hours work, not three days. However, the quote was a single figure for labour for the entire job and no mention of how many days this is for. Therefore I cannot discern a day rate (and neither can he from the contract that is allegedly formed).

He he is claiming for the cost of materials and states the amount and says for the “cost of materials not returned”. Now I can understand that he is out of pocket for these materials which were left at my property, however no request for payment was ever made and no request to return said materials. I am unaware of the cost of the materials other than what is claimed in the court form. I would deny the claim that I owe for the materials and instead suggest that they are returned to the claimant (I still have them). The problem here is he probably wants the money instead but 2 years on we are not able to get a refund which we would have been able to at the time. As he says in the claim “£amount for materials not returned” it feels that this is an acceptable request at this stage as it implies he would have accepted a return.

He claims interest which I guess is standard but I’d like to think that this will be easy to dispute (at least at the 8% rate as he has never actually asked for any money until now.

As for mediation etc, I would be willing to cooperate as I know this can go against you, but I will not be devoting money to this (I.e legal aid or paying for mediation if this how it works). I would respond to him or his solicitor to negotiate on the dispute (however almost all of the claim is something I am not going to be able to accept so don’t expect this to go well).

unfortunately it feels that the circumstances around why I had to cease the project are irrelevant (as in the court will just look at whether I breached contract) which would go against me. I feel there must be a legal reason for me breaching the contract but the scenario is so specific that I don’t think I could fight it without proper legal advice which would be disproportionate to the claim so not in my interest. My family genuinely feared what the claimant might do as he appeared to have serious mental health issues. I felt sorry for him at the time as he seriously believed the stories he was telling (his life was being protected by MI5 because he was suing another local company in a case that involved MI5, the police and the CIA. He was also psychic, but not so psychic to see the termination coming). Google didn’t help me when trying to find out if this scenario discharges me of responsibility in the contract!

[des8]

"Materials not returned"....as you were the bailee of the goods your liability extends to taking reasonable care of them. It is for the owner to collect them. Presumably you have not forbidden collection and would allow him to collect by arrangement.

As you had concerns for the safety of your family you might have a defence under health and safety legislation

Do you have a copy of the contract you had with him?

[newbieatlaw]

There is no physical contract, just an agreement of a quote. So there are no terms other than whatever standard expectations there are under contract law. I have not and would not prevent him from collecting the materials. I will look at health and safety legislation to see what I can find out. I appreciate your comments. From knowing the full detail it seems impossible that he could uphold the contract but I understand I have to demonstrate the legal reason for breaking the contract which is what is proving hard to pin down.

the “claim” is of poor quality, for example it states the month and year when the contract was alleged to be formed but then says that work started on x date but the date given is two years out. This is repeated when giving a date that materials were purchased. Is that something I can use or is an error like that acceptable? Can I dispute those points on the fact alone that what is alleged to have happened on those days could not have? Or is it expected that I would point out the mistakes and respond as if they were correct?

[des8]

So there was a verbal contract for this guy to build a patio for £x., this being the cost of labour only.
What was the arrangement about materials? It seems he was to supply and you would reimburse the cost, as it was not part of the quote.

It seems there was no stated time of start or completion
He actually appeared on site, but after one hour you told him you no longer wanted him to do the work

So as he had started work he could request you pay:
-a cancellation fee
-labour costs up until the time you cancelled
-any loss of profit caused by your cancellation (eg couldn't book another job for the same period as set aside for your job)

I would suggest (presumably this was a MCOL) an acknowledgement of claim, followed by your defence in due time.
The court is almost bound to suggest mediation, and I would recommend trying to settle at that stage.

Cancelling because your family felt they were at risk is pretty nebulous.
You would have to show there was a real risk to their safety.
You make reference to his Walter Mitty syndrome and serious mental health issues, but do you have any solid proof these present an actual threat?

[newbieatlaw]

The quote included the cost of materials, as for contract being verbal or in writing I would say it is unclear precisely but it is either in an email (acceptance of quote) or verbally accepting the quote, depending on how you interpret the email thread. As far as I understand, it makes little difference which it is, there are no specific terms in any case.

There was no stated time for completion, although a start date was agreed about a week or so in advance. The day he was due to start he turned up on time and took the keys but said it was "too wet to work" and left with the understanding he would be back the next day (presumably weather permitting).

You are right that it was an MCOL. From what I understand at this moment in time it sounds like I am bound to have to agree to part of the claim (e.g. materials), although whether I should be paying the price stated or being allowed to return the materials is up for debate (I am less concerned about this).

I do not have proof that it presented an actual threat, who does in a situation like that? I understand that the law has to be based on facts but no reasonable person is going to allow a person who behaved as he was to have access to their home.

As for arguing about how much he actually did (he claiming 3 days, me claiming 1 hour), how does that get dealt with in reality. It's effectively one word against another (well i have many people who can affirm my side although they would all be deemed impartial I assume). Would it be for the claimant to prove he had done three days work? A start date agreed does not mean he did any work.

Final question, there are claims in the form that I cannot agree or reject as there is not enough information. As he never invoiced me or requested anything from me prior to the Claim Form, I only have the particulars in that which are vague. for example, "expenses incurred in returning items to Gloucester", or "Items purchased from <store> not returned", I do not know what items these would be. I would expect to see receipts of items that have been returned and also a receipt of the materials he is claiming so I can verify amounts. As I have no choice but to respond to the court within 14 days what is the process for not being able to accept or reject a claim? I know I have to respond to every claim or risk accepting any that are ignored. Do I simply state that I do not have enough information to be able to comment on an individual claim?

[des8]

So as the quote included cost of materials, yes, he can claim for the cost of materials, but would need to prove the cost.

You state "I do not have proof that it presented an actual threat, who does in a situation like that?
You haven't described the situation
You state "I understand that the law has to be based on facts but no reasonable person is going to allow a person who behaved as he was to have access to their home."
You haven't stated how he behaved so no comment on whether you were correct to cancel the contract.

How much can he claim?.. for all of his loss of profit so for as many days as it was expected to take to carry out the work
You have suggested his POC is poor, and it would seem he doesn't realise how much he could claim.

You need to acknowledge the claim, but enter nothing in the defence box as this will give you a further 14 days to enter a full defence.

Difficult to advise on your defence but I should think to start it along the lines of:
1. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.
2. The claimants' particulars of claims are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised

You need then to go through his PoC and deal with it point by point, requiring where necessary that he prove individual items.

[newbieatlaw]

What I mean by “who has proof in situation like that” is that by needing to have proof that someone is capable of causing harm it seems you would need to have witnessed some harm in the first place. I was not going to let this get to this. So the closest I have is that when he arrived he was in a very angry state due to some inconsiderate parking from my neighbours. He had been told not to inflame an existing situation with them as there were legal proceedings in progress with them. He was ranting about having to reverse up the drive and said that he had arranged to have the offending vehicle (parked in a turning bay) “sent to the crusher” for not having tax or MOT (he knew this because he had “sensed” it). I checked and the vehicle was taxed etc. His angry state, pacing around the room, and delusions about MI5 combined with my wife feeling unsafe with him around were what I acted on. He was also talking to a stranger (a dog walker) and was telling one of the dogs to sit and pushing down it’s behind in a very forceful way. Several people witnessed this from afar.

ironically, would I have a better defence by believing his story and claiming that my family were in danger due to the claimants threat to life that he had told me about. He stated that he had MI5 protection because his life was in danger from a company he was taking to court. If he was a target then he was a liability being around my family? It seems ridiculous but maybe I have to play his game!

with regards to the poor claim, could he change his position and ask for more? If there is the possibility of this I have to weigh up options if I risk the claim getting worse.

[des8]

So you do have reason to believe he could be unreasonable and aggressive and could therefore possibly be a threat to members of your family.
IMO it would not be unreasonable to terminate a contract which involved close contact between such a character and my family, especially if it includes children.

He could apply to the court to amend his claim, but this would have cost implications for him.
Given his perceived mental instability I would have thought this is unlikely, especially if he is running the claim himself.

Probably still better to come to a mediated settlement than go through the expense and stress of a court hearing

[newbieatlaw]

If I have grounds to terminate the contract would it still be referred to as a breach of contract? I need to understand what I am calling it when responding to the claim. I.e if I am claiming a valid termination of the contract would I be denying the breach of contract claim or admitting breach of contract but with a legal reason for doing so?

[des8]

IMO you admit breach of the contract by terminating it
The question is whether or not you were justified in terminating it by reason of the other parties' behaviour.

As he would have had close contact with your family, one would expect such a contractor to behave in a calm and responsible manner.
However he exhibited such a lack of control that you were concerned for the safety of your family.

You will need to show the court that this left you no other course than terminate the contract.

tagging R0b for another view?

[R0b]

Morning, I'll read the thread and respond later today.