BRENTWOOD Council Tax unfair practice

[MrJonesDog]

Hello everyone,
Firstly would like to say I tied to post the full chronological details here, but over-charactered (too lengthy).
So here is a a quick summary but I have proof (except didn't record phone calls).
1/ I thought my tax standing order was recurring
2/ I was a week late paying on 3rd month because received letter saying 'bring up to date £80 within 7 days or full amount due in 14 etc'
3/ Letter arrived on 7th day of send date and couldn't pay because their phone and web payments were down, I tried all weekend.
4/ Sunday, 9th day after their letter date I paid by faster transfer
5/ Received the 14 day going to court letter if not paid
5/ I made another payment of £100 after to show a 'sorry' and hope it was all good, because once again letter came at weekend
6/ Called council Monday, got through around 3 hours after continual trying whilst working (I work at serious height on towers in London, so this was crazy difficult and scary.
7/ They promised all was fine, but I forced them to take another £100 by debit card. They promised NO COURT.
8/ Saturday just gone got a going to court letter, but also a 'special arrangement / liability order letter'
9/ I paid another £100 (I can put up precise dates but the character limit is awkward, so this is a nutshell version!)
10/ I don't want to pay the £65 summons or the £30 liability order because my inability to pay was because of shared liability - I made a mistake by not recurring payment, they couldn't take payment because their payment systems were down.

[MrJonesDog]

1/ I COULD pay it in full by credit card and pay that off over 2 or 3 months with a little bit of interest from credit card, BUT they will still add £65 for summons fees
2/ Or I accept liability order and do that way costing extra £30 (so £95 fees)
3/ I do not trust them whatsoever now. My bank may go down for maintenance or faster payments (I set up recurring already), Nationwide bank does this very occasionally, and they'll send someone, and I'll be hit with more fees
4/ It is like serious bullying, lied to, mistakes both sides. Mine was an oversight, theirs were systems and a lie.
5/ Can I get the fees waived somehow and pay monthly? It's unfair I was offered to sort out in 7 days, arrived seventh day and payment systems were down (or overloaded as reminders went out possibly?)

Advise really welcome.

I likened the situation to owing money to someone really scary who'll destroy your life and mental health, vs using card and owing money to someone that will send a letter if there's a payment problem, but there won't be because I'll set up recurring and if Nationwide make a mistake, I'll be covered by Nationwide or just an understanding card company.

You probably guess how I feel, never missed a payment before, when first moving to the borough I had to beg for three months to receive and pay my tax, but their systems were down then due to 'upgrades'. They are rude, aggressive, or nice and lie, depending whom you get on phone...

I don't want to go to their offices as I'll lose a days holiday, which frankly will be worth more than their charges or any credit card interest. If I use debit, then I will be in my overdraft for three weeks up to amounts nearing £400.

Thank you so much for reading :-)

[MrJonesDog]

Incidentally because of all the hundreds I keep sending, I owe half of the original amount and am months ahead now!

[lgfa92]

To be honest, if you're disputing payment on the basis that the reminder wasn't received in time and you then couldn't pay you have a fight. This sort of argument comes up many times. From the information you have posted I would say that:

Reg 23 of the council tax (administration and enforcement) regs 1992 provides that the missed instalment on the reminder must be paid within 7 days of issue or you have a further 7 additional days to make the full payment. By your own admission it wasn't received until 7 days after postage therefore you would need to show that you tried to pay before the end of that 7th day otherwise your argument fails immediately on this basis.

5/ Received the 14 day going to court letter if not paid

At the point the summons is issued you have already lost the right to pay instalments and the whole balance is due.

7/ They promised all was fine, but I forced them to take another £100 by debit card. They promised NO COURT.

If you believe they told you they weren't pushing ahead with the summons then complain to the council however I would suspect that it has become mangled in translation and what was actually meant was that you don't have to physically attend court (which you don't).

Incidentally because of all the hundreds I keep sending, I owe half of the original amount and am months ahead now!

At present you're not ahead - you're behind because a balance for the entire year became due and is still outstanding.

[MrJonesDog]

I was going to type the chronological here. But I don't think I need an answer. I think I can provide advise that I feel will save people never get in my position and is how I'm paying forever from now on:

It does not matter what you do or say, Brentwood council are evil. The idiot on the phone is sick of his underpaid job, endless complaints from people and feels bitter but has some power afforded to him by position, so flexes it to make up for his failings ending up in a council call centre. Every work place has the rubbish position, he's living it and earning a meager wage for it.

The letters always arrive Friday or Saturday. The date on the letter never gives you time to react. In 2015 they updated their I.T. systems and freely admitted it was / is a nightmare.

So once received you have all weekend to fret, hopefully finding payment. As opposed to receiving Monday and just calling them before trying to find payment. This keeps calls lower, shorter and payments higher and faster with less arguing or begging. Common sense really. If you have no empathy.

The letters they send are all designed to make you sell your soul to pay them. The wording and appearance. For example is this necessary in your opinion when a week overdue "we are not yet considering imprisonment at this stage" "if you don't pay in FULL we will". Excessive.

They do NOT point out that you can call to make a payment plan. They say it is over, yet the very final letter with a court date, says the original 7 day and 14 day letter were a lie. You can now have installments back, but it has cost you £95 more, and now they can send the bailiffs to take your car / bike / TV whatever, at any time because they have in their possession a liability order, which you have to pay for.

Councils have had their budgets cut. So they just look to rob anyone that makes the slightest mistake and have sat down and worked out how to statistically make it near impossible to not end up paying more when you do. Very clever.

In my case I have money, I am not rich, but I can find what they want using a card over a couple or even three months.

If you are poorer, get on here and CAB and look for a mistake or anything and fight. Because if you fret and find the money, so you can't eat, you've fallen for it. The final letter even says their will be people from the council at court in the waiting rooms to help with instalment plans. The magistrate won't listen to anything that isn't a legal defence.

So call them as soon as you can and try to get a new payment plan. They will likely say no until the liability order letter then say yes, but we are still getting the order, so if you do it again we can take your things and sell them, take your benefits, take your wages from your work before you get them.

To prove this they LIED to me to prevent me stopping the liability order. They said everything's fine, then within days had a liability order! How I wish I had recorded that.

Always record calls - always keep paying during these letters but don't starve your children - if you are free and it won't cost you, go to court (you're paying for the hearing, you may as well go even if only to annoy them by making their day longer) with an armful of records, search for a 'legal defence' (if their systems are down do a screen print of the error and include in your pile of records - record error messages and include. These must be legal defences for not meeting the 7 day deadline? SEND a faster payment BEFORE the 7 days.

If you are wealthy, get a solicitor and fight. Because I am sure it is malpractice to bully, intimidate and lie. I know if I treated someone the way they have me I'd be at the least arrested. I would love to hear someone had the guy arrested who lied on the phone under some FCA / DDA / or just under the new violence law that includes intimidation as it does GBH.

In my case I AM GOING TO ALWAYS PAY MY TAX IN FULL BY CREDIT CARD. I will swap and change 0% offers, and when I can't, I'll pay it off in 6 months, with maybe £50 interest. That will be fine with me knowing myself and the council are done with and it helps my credit rating some!

Please, if anyone can help others with Brentwoods' tactics, post up, there's some poor unfortunate people out there not sleeping because of these and aren't in a position to just pay. Being poor doesn't make you less relevant or of less worth as a human being.

I'm contemplating paying in full the morning of the hearing, it'll cost me £30 extra, but I will waste hours of their time fighting in court, and at the very end ask "if I've paid in full is that a legal defence?" Yes sir it is. "Oh I already have, here's my email receipt / bank statement etc". I won't discuss anything with the staff in the waiting area first - they refused me that privilege already before court! But their latest letter asked me to contact them if I plan to bring my solicitor.... After my letter saying I need fair notice from now on about the court date to give my solicitor time to prepare. THAT caused a fast reply for the first time, a really cheap / long instalment plan, and a sentence on the 'special plan' asking me to 'please' let them know if I intend to use a solicitor. Seems if I rang and said yes I'm bringing one because he's found legal defence, they'd waive charges. Maybe. I hope others fill some blanks here to help people.

So again, it may be all councils now, I used to be with a different one and they were absolutely fine. Brentwood council can't find their rear end with both hands - providing they're making money of course.

How the hell are poor people meant to get on in life when if you cant pay / they charge more? This is true of all financial institutions and it is just forever widening the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest.

I am ashamed of this towns council. Disgraced.

THANKS EVERYONE, PLEASE HELP OTHERS WITH YOUR GOOD WORK.

A list of legal defences would be great, but I'm done with this now and just going to pay. Just not 100% sure if I'm paying now, or at the last minute. I may try the phone call and say hi, you asked me to call if my solicitor is coming. He said because I recorded everything, you've made so many mistakes and what appear to be malicious tactics, he has insisted it is in my interest to do so. If that causes just a couple of hours work, or them paying for a brief for no reason, I'm happy!

I'll let you know if I do, but I am very busy working, so probably will just pay it today...... Sorry if I do, I would of liked to post what happens if you fight further. So far I have lost £65....... It isn't that that made me so mad, it is the obviousness of their tactics and I've always hated the way the poor are dealt with. This gave me a taster, and now I'm appalled at how they are treated. They must deal with this stress every day with financial and government institutions.

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[MrJonesDog]

Thanks for the post :-)

To be honest, if you're disputing payment on the basis that the reminder wasn't received in time and you then couldn't pay you have a fight. This sort of argument comes up many times. From the information you have posted I would say that:

Reg 23 of the council tax (administration and enforcement) regs 1992 provides that the missed instalment on the reminder must be paid within 7 days of issue or you have a further 7 additional days to make the full payment. By your own admission it wasn't received until 7 days after postage therefore you would need to show that you tried to pay before the end of that 7th day otherwise your argument fails immediately on this basis.

I have no way of proving that I spent from around 19:30 or something until after midnight after work, when the letter arrived on day 7, trying to pay via their website and telephone automated payment. I wish I print screened and recorded.....

At the point the summons is issued you have already lost the right to pay instalments and the whole balance is due.

I know, but with these guys that's partially correct. Legally lost it yes. But they want to get the liability order before agreeing a 'plan'. So they make money / and can send in the bailiffs straight away thereafter.

If you believe they told you they weren't pushing ahead with the summons then complain to the council however I would suspect that it has become mangled in translation and what was actually meant was that you don't have to physically attend court (which you don't).

At present you're not ahead - you're behind because a balance for the entire year became due and is still outstanding.

I definitely was told not to worry about it. She said you were slightly behind before that's all by a couple of days, and for some reason I had to fight and force money on to them. Even complaints were trying to stop me payoing more. That is unusual no? It was complaints that told me I had nothing to worry about, it was payments that were rude as hell and were 'annoyed' taking a payment? This arouses suspicion for me.

I am ahead. I haven't lived here until April 2019 yet!! Pedantic :-)

You clearly know tax law, which is brilliant, I'm glad there are people willing and able to help. I just kept imagining peoples children not eating because of the stress. I have a very stressful career, yet this made me so stressed not being in the position before. I do not understand society that makes those unable to pay poorer, pay higher APR etc. I know it is a difficult balance, but it isn't right.

[lgfa92]

The letters they send are all designed to make you sell your soul to pay them. The wording and appearance. For example is this necessary in your opinion when a week overdue "we are not yet considering imprisonment at this stage" "if you don't pay in FULL we will". Excessive.

As a request to the court for imprisonment is possible as a method of recovery it is not particularly wrong on them to tell people that the liability order hearing isn't to apply for committal.

They do NOT point out that you can call to make a payment plan. They say it is over, yet the very final letter with a court date, says the original 7 day and 14 day letter were a lie. You can now have installments back, but it has cost you £95 more, and now they can send the bailiffs to take your car / bike / TV whatever, at any time because they have in their possession a liability order, which you have to pay for.

You misunderstand the process. Once a reminder notice has failed to be paid within 7 days the right to instalments is lost and payment of the full balance is due in 7 days (or a summons can be issued). The council do not have to offer a payment arrangement once a summons has been issued, they can do at their choice but there is no requirement for them to ask for anything less than the full balance in one go. The council are, under council tax legislation, allowed to ask for costs to be granted for both the summons and liability order - you can dispute these at the hearing if you so wish but the court would need to be either in a good mood or feeling generous for them not to (it happens rarely).

To prove this they LIED to me to prevent me stopping the liability order. They said everything's fine, then within days had a liability order! How I wish I had recorded that.

If you feel they advised you wrongly then take it up with them (same goes regarding not being able to make payment online) however nothing you have posted council tax procedure wise would stop them obtaining a liability order from the court - all documents appear to have been issued correctly.

I'm contemplating paying in full the morning of the hearing, it'll cost me £30 extra, but I will waste hours of their time fighting in court,

You'll not be wasting hours of their time - they're at the court anyway for the liability order hearing, which takes 10-15mins or so if not contested to grant all the requested orders. If you wish to speak to the magistrates they can quickly tell you that there is no obvious procedural flaw and grant the order in the absence of any evidence it's been paid or is flawed. If you can show you've paid then they'll likely just ask the council to withdraw the application. It won't take long and any attempt to draw them in to any sort of argument will just be dismissed by the magistrate.

After my letter saying I need fair notice from now on about the court date to give my solicitor time to prepare.

They don't need to give any more than the statutory time. If you want to ask for the hearing to be adjourned it is up to you to ask the court unless the council agree to ask the court for you. Having been to council tax courts once a month or so over a decade (and dealt with thousands of liability orders) it was very rare a solicitor was brought for council tax issues and, to be truthful, there was almost nothing the solicitor could do. The solicitor almost always didn't understand council tax legislation and didn't understand the process so didn't have a valid defence (There are some council tax specialists but they are few). In most of the cases it was a dispute for a valuation tribunal anyway, over which the magistrates have no say, but the solicitor in not being familiar with council tax wasn't aware of that point.

In summary, apart from an argument over whether or not they told you the summons would be withdrawn, the council have not done anything wrong in their process based on what you have posted.

[lgfa92]

I know, but with these guys that's partially correct. Legally lost it yes. But they want to get the liability order before agreeing a 'plan'. So they make money / and can send in the bailiffs straight away thereafter.

They won't use an enforcement agent if a payment plan is agreed and kept to. They will do so only if the payment plan is defaulted on or not agreed. Again, having dealt with enforcement agents for over a decade, it is far easier for the council to input a payment arrangement and have it monitored by their council tax software than to have to mess around with enforcement agents (which is a time intensive process).

Obtaining the liability order is standard practice - turn the viewpoint around and look at it from their side. If someone, for whatever reason, owed you money and had, for whatever reason, failed to pay instalments, would you cease obtaining a court order if they again offered to pay by instalments or would would you say - 'fine, pay, but I want the court order in case you default again' ?. It's not pleasant on the receiving end but from their point of view it's the most sensible route.

You clearly know tax law, which is brilliant, I'm glad there are people willing and able to help. I just kept imagining peoples children not eating because of the stress. I have a very stressful career, yet this made me so stressed not being in the position before. I do not understand society that makes those unable to pay poorer, pay higher APR etc. I know it is a difficult balance, but it isn't right.

It has been my day job since 2006 ish. First for a council and then changing sides and doing self employed consultancy work. Standard statement applies though - anything I post is by way of opinion and not connected to my work etc etc.

I definitely was told not to worry about it. She said you were slightly behind before that's all by a couple of days, and for some reason I had to fight and force money on to them. Even complaints were trying to stop me payoing more. That is unusual no? It was complaints that told me I had nothing to worry about, it was payments that were rude as hell and were 'annoyed' taking a payment? This arouses suspicion for me.

Not paying more is often because a) it can cause problems in some cases where people have different payment plans on different debts so they often just say to pay the exact amount in order that it can be automatically posted to the correct balance and b) so that people are not forcing themselves to try and over-pay and then leave themselves short. Again, if you feel they told you wrong then challenge it - to be truthful I used to withdraw a lot of summons based on similar stories because I knew, from what I was being told, and the officer involved that it was probably correct. It cannot do any harm to contact to challenge the council on what their advisor said.