Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

TBH, I would force CRS and Game to show their hand, which they must do under Civil Procedures Rules, even if the matter is going no further, either way. They know they must and have no choice in the matter. It will be interesting to see what they are relying on or whether their case is, as suspected, a try-on. If it turns out to be a try-on and they have no quantifiable or valid claim whatsoever, both CRS and Game could be in trouble. And I'm not talking a rap on the knuckles either.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

HI beagleman

Reading around on this opinions vary, and as said it has to be your decision, however if it were me I would look at it this way;

They say that you would be better served responding to their letter, because the court may take your lack of willingness to negotiate a settlement and hold it against you.
The problem with that is that you are not interested in negotiating a settlement, what you are saying is that there is no case to answer, so what is the point in responding.

What you would be embarking on would an exchange of letters along the lines of, yes you do and no I don't. Totally pointless IMO

Of course it is in their interests to keep you talking because that way they can apply pressure, so in short if it were me I would ignore everything except an N1(order) that arrived from a court.

Andy

[wales01man]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

No answer to my question,if there is no recorded case where CRS have won in a defended court case surely this must sway the OP to either ignore the threats or fight,in replying the letter must be worded properley maybe some on here can help?

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

I have noticed that CR operators tend to allege people have committed "wrongful acts", but fail to say what and how it is wrongful. However, the Oxford case revealed that RLP and its client had, themselves, committed wrongful acts by exaggerating the cost of the security manager and security goon's wages. RLP then bleated that the security manager and security goon were "not familiar with court procedures". Try "attempting to mislead the court" and "attempting to unjustifiably enrich the claimant".

Having looked back over this thread again, I have to come to the conclusion that the Ghosh Test does apply and should be applied where an allegation of criminal dishonesty is made by the claimant and CR operator. Indeed, in the Oxford case, an attempt was made to have the case assigned to the Multi-Track on the grounds of "question as to dishonesty". That says a lot to me.

The OP needs to back CRS and Game into a corner and force them to show their evidence or drop their fatuous and questionable claims and demands.

My gut-instinct tells me CRS and Game are going to have a job quantifying their claims and this Loss Prevention goon may find their actions being subject to scrutiny.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

HI

Looking at the letter again, I still would ignore, it does not seem to be a letter before action , "we may enforce" or "if further action etc".

If it were an LBA, the claim should be particularized, how much of this claim is for breach of employment contract, how much for damages in respect of lost time used by security personnel etc., if this is a claim for civil damages these items cannot be estimated, to avoid being a penalty they must be proportionate to the losses.

Andy

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

I have noticed that CR operators tend to allege people have committed "wrongful acts", but fail to say what and how it is wrongful. However, the Oxford case revealed that RLP and its client had, themselves, committed wrongful acts by exaggerating the cost of the security manager and security goon's wages. RLP then bleated that the security manager and security goon were "not familiar with court procedures". Try "attempting to mislead the court" and "attempting to unjustifiably enrich the claimant".

Having looked back over this thread again, I have to come to the conclusion that the Ghosh Test does apply and should be applied where an allegation of criminal dishonesty is made by the claimant and CR operator. Indeed, in the Oxford case, an attempt was made to have the case assigned to the Multi-Track on the grounds of "question as to dishonesty". That says a lot to me.

The OP needs to back CRS and Game into a corner and force them to show their evidence or drop their fatuous and questionable claims and demands.

My gut-instinct tells me CRS and Game are going to have a job quantifying their claims and this Loss Prevention goon may find their actions being subject to scrutiny.

Bluebottle

Could you point out where the allegation of criminal dishonesty was leveled at the OP please

Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

HI

Looking at the letter again, I still would ignore, it does not seem to be a letter before action , "we may enforce" or "if further action etc".

If it were an LBA, the claim should be particularized, how much of this claim is for breach of employment contract, how much for damages in respect of lost time used by security personnel etc., if this is a claim for civil damages these items cannot be estimated, to avoid being a penalty they must be proportionate to the losses.

Andy

It is all very well CRS and Game making speculative allegations and demands. The question is, "Where is the real evidence?", that is, evidence that substantiates the allegations and demands. Former Justice Minister Jonathan Djangoly made himself look a right tit when he tried to act as a mouthpiece for CR, only to have the Law Commission torpedo what he had said and blow it completely out of the water.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

It is all very well CRS and Game making speculative allegations and demands. The question is, "Where is the real evidence?", that is, evidence that substantiates the allegations and demands. Former Justice Minister Jonathan Djangoly made himself look a right tit when he tried to act as a mouthpiece for CR, only to have the Law Commission torpedo what he had said and blow it completely out of the water.

The only evidence required is the fact that the goods were wrongfully in the possession of the OP, this is admitted, with the greatest of respect this is a civil matter, there is no need to prove intent or dishonesty.

Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Bluebottle

Could you point ot where the allegation of criminal dishonesty was leveled at the OP please

Andy

I was making reference to a specific case - A Retailer -v- Miss B & Miss K [2012] - to illustrate the dubious nature of the way in which CR operators work. In that particular case, RLP attempted to have the case assigned to the Multi-Track by making reference to "question as to dishonesty", but the judge would have none of it and assigned it to the Small Claims Track.

Looking at the post you have quoted, I don't actually specify an allegation of dishonesty made against the OP. If my post has given a misleading impression, then I put my hands up to that. However, there is, as far as I can see, no specific reference to an allegation of dishonesty against the OP.

[Guest]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

I was making reference to a specific case - A Retailer -v- Miss B & Miss K [2012] - to illustrate the dubious nature of the way in which CR operators work. In that particular case, RLP attempted to have the case assigned to the Multi-Track by making reference to "question as to dishonesty", but the judge would have none of it and assigned it to the Small Claims Track.

Looking at the post you have quoted, I don't actually specify an allegation of dishonesty made against the OP. If my post has given a misleading impression, then I put my hands up to that. However, there is, as far as I can see, no specific reference to an allegation of dishonesty against the OP.

OK thanks

I think that this would probably go no further however, the burden is on the claimant to demonstrate specific damages.

Andy

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

The only evidence required is the fact that the goods were wrongfully in the possession of the OP, this is admitted, with the greatest of respect this is a civil matter, there is no need to prove intent or dishonesty.

Andy

I think it would be better if the OP got hold of copies of the Loss Prevention goon's report and other evidence and this was examined to see if CRS and Game have a quantifiable case, if any.

CR is a very dubious practice and the Law Commission has made it clear CR claims have no basis in law. As for the OP being in wrongful possession of goods, the fact is they were promotional goods that a supplier had supplied to promote their products and Game did not pay for them. If anyone has a right to claim, then it is the supplier who provided the promotional goods, as they would have intellectual property rights in any image imprinted on the promotional goods and paid for the promotional goods to be supplied and imprinted, as well as having the right as to how the promotional goods were used and dealt with. If the supplier has authorised Game and CRS to act on their behalf, then Game and CRS have to produce evidence of such authority. However, IP has its own remedies which are laid down in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

I feel that more clarification of the exact nature of CRS and Game's case, if they have one, is needed. It may be that conversion is not appropriate and remedies under IP are more appropriate. The OP needs to press CRS and Game for full and better details of their alleged case.

[beagleman]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Would this suffice as a request for evidence?

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...-recovery-firm

[Inca]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Ok,,,,I'm probably being completely thick and missing the point here so feel free to :fish: me.......

OP got caught 'obtaining goodies' from his workplace ........not permitted to do so,so therefore 'theft'
OP sold said goodies on ebay......so therefore 'profit from theft'.......not allowed
OP resigned before disciplinary...therefore 'admitting guilt of theft' (jumped before pushed)

I'd be more worried about how I explain this tale to a future employer,,it's after effects are going to be a tad more serious than being asked to pay a doubtful sum to CR.
Just my opinion...feel free to rip it apart

[bluebottle]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Ok,,,,I'm probably being completely thick and missing the point here so feel free to :fish: me.......

OP got caught 'obtaining goodies' from his workplace ........not permitted to do so,so therefore 'theft'
OP sold said goodies on ebay......so therefore 'profit from theft'.......not allowed
OP resigned before disciplinary...therefore 'admitting guilt of theft' (jumped before pushed)

I'd be more worried about how I explain this tale to a future employer,,it's after effects are going to be a tad more serious than being asked to pay a doubtful sum to CR.
Just my opinion...feel free to rip it apart

Theft is a specific offence under the Criminal Law - Sections 1-7, Theft Act 1968 - and has a battery of statutory "ifs, ands and buts" which exist to protect the individual against reckless and unsubstantiated allegations of dishonesty.

In the OP's case, there is not, from what I can see, any evidence of Theft as -

a. the goods were the property of a supplier who supplied them to promote the launch of a product the OP's employer sold;
b. the OP's employer did not pay for the items;
c. the OP's employer was disposing of them as waste;
d. the manager allowed staff to take promotional goods home with them;
e. neither part of the test for dishonesty has been satisfied.

Taking all of the foregoing into account, the OP's employer and CRS would have difficulty trying to convince a court the OP had committed Theft. I am also of the opinion that the OP's employer and CRS are going to have difficulty convincing a court of conversion or civil tort. CRS's letter is speculative to say the least and they have not complied with Civil Procedures Rules. That can be very telling in itself.

[Inca]

Re: Caught Stealing from Work, Letter from CRS

Thanks for that BB...never hurts to get educated I find.

So....to my other query...future employment......surely this will 'bite OP on the bum' so to speak,,(because he resigned)..or is that point purely academic (see,Elo..I can ask occasional sensible Employment questions)