Civil Recovery - Why not?

[Galahad]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

I don't like to be a doubting Thomas (primarily as thats simply not my name!), but i'd be interested to see if the OP bothers to come back, and I do wonder if this is a one off thread singing the praises of those valiant RLP types that do such good for the community*


* A considerable amount of sarcasm might have been apparent to some.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

How about the case I saw in Tesco?

An elderly man with Dementia (well known in the area). He somehow evaded his carer, and in his confused state decided he actually WORKED for Tescos, handing out baskets and things. Bless him, he heard someone on the checkout shout YOU FORGOT YOUR WINE! so he picked a bottle of £5 plonk off the shelves and walked out the shop to return the (to his confused old mind) paid for item to it's rightful owner. He was swooped on like he answered to Bin Laden, frogmarched in to a side room and, despite protests from checkout staff and the man's carer, the police were called.

Quite rightly, the police said it was a case of an old confused man who needed to be tucked up in his bed, but the store security demanded his name and address, which his carer rightly refused, so the security demanded he was prosecuted.

I met his carer later that week, she told me the police DID put him in the car, and dropped him off at his care home telling him he had got lost again!

Hardly Ronnie Biggs is it? Is this a case of, he stole it he has no rights, or are you like me thinking Aww the poor old sod!

It's very easy to say Lock em up and throw away the key, sure if they have a £500 tv, stereo system and designer jeans in a bag, but to attempt to charge a man with dementia obscene amounts of money for him thinking he was doing the right thing, I say we keep the anti RLP noise going as loud as we can until they are FORCED to see sense... and you can tell RLP I said that too!

Oh and the owner of the pesky bottle of rose wine that caused this hassle? Yours Truely.

[pepsie]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

Some years ago as very proud grandparent I took my granddaughter in a buggy into a very large department store, we struggled through the overcrowded isles made our purchase and left. Baby was put into car seat and buggy was quickly collapsed and put in the boot, on arrival home the buggy was stored as usual and it was not until a few days later it was taken out to be used again....it was quickly assembled and to our horror we found a ladies bra complete with dainty hanger, hooked to the buggy....obviously due to the tight spacing between the racks we had 'stolen' the item unintentionally. It is a 50 mile round trip to the store but we made the journey and returned the goods with explanation to the department manager...we were told to be more careful and there was not an utterance of thank you.

It could have been worse had the security guards (three) spotted the goods and no doubt we would have been seen to be criminals and given a 'paper fine' and harassed for payment.

Pepsie

[bluebottle]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

How about the case I saw in Tesco?

An elderly man with Dementia (well known in the area). He somehow evaded his carer, and in his confused state decided he actually WORKED for Tescos, handing out baskets and things. Bless him, he heard someone on the checkout shout YOU FORGOT YOUR WINE! so he picked a bottle of £5 plonk off the shelves and walked out the shop to return the (to his confused old mind) paid for item to it's rightful owner. He was swooped on like he answered to Bin Laden, frogmarched in to a side room and, despite protests from checkout staff and the man's carer, the police were called.

Quite rightly, the police said it was a case of an old confused man who needed to be tucked up in his bed, but the store security demanded his name and address, which his carer rightly refused, so the security demanded he was prosecuted.

I met his carer later that week, she told me the police DID put him in the car, and dropped him off at his care home telling him he had got lost again!

Hardly Ronnie Biggs is it? Is this a case of, he stole it he has no rights, or are you like me thinking Aww the poor old sod!

It's very easy to say Lock em up and throw away the key, sure if they have a £500 tv, stereo system and designer jeans in a bag, but to attempt to charge a man with dementia obscene amounts of money for him thinking he was doing the right thing, I say we keep the anti RLP noise going as loud as we can until they are FORCED to see sense... and you can tell RLP I said that too!

Oh and the owner of the pesky bottle of rose wine that caused this hassle? Yours Truely.

What the police did in the case you've highlighted, Puff, is the Ways and Means Act in operation. The police aren't daft and even they know when retail security staff are behaving like total numpties.

[bluebottle]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

Actually, you don't have to give your details to private sector security guards or retailers. To the best of my knowledge and belief, they have no right in law whatsoever to demand your personal details. If they have not got your details, they can't hand them to CR companies.

[Celestine]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

It would be interesting to find out the structure between security guards/retailers/Civil Recovery companies.

Directly employed security guards are unlikely to be on 'commission' of any kind, in addition they do not have to be SIA registered.

Agency and 3rd party guards have to be registered and licensed by SIA. Lots of companies like G4, Emprise, etc supply temp guards and I am curious to know why the guards are so determined to secure the names and addresses in such clear 'mistake' incidents.

[bluebottle]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

It would be interesting to find out the structure between security guards/retailers/Civil Recovery companies.

Directly employed security guards are unlikely to be on 'commission' of any kind, in addition they do not have to be SIA registered.

Agency and 3rd party guards have to be registered and licensed by SIA. Lots of companies like G4, Emprise, etc supply temp guards and I am curious to know why the guards are so determined to secure the names and addresses in such clear 'mistake' incidents.

Where I live, Morrisons employ a security company whose security officers do not behave like the muppets RLP's clients use/employ. If someone does genuinely forget to scan something or run it through a manned EPOS till, they simply take the item, get it scanned and the customer pays for the item. They are also the same if a customer gets outside the store, realises an item has not been scanned and re-enters the store to point it out. A lot of retail security operators could learn a lot from this company.

My view, as a retired policeman, is that the company encourages its employees to use their commonsense. It does raise questions about the whole concept of CR and how it is being operated in the United Kingdom. There needs to be a far-reaching and in-depth investigation into the industry and firms, like RLP, should be forced to register as CMCs, whether they want to or not. At least, then, the consumer will have some protection against gung-ho retail security staff and demands based on questionable and dodgy legal premises.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

I have been googling your question Cel, and so far I have found 4 adverts for Retail Security Gaurds, promising RLP training plus "a bonus", but mention of what the bonus is for

and the training is from? http://www.lossprevention.co.uk/training.aspx who else??

[Celestine]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

OOhh can u pop some links up hun? x

[leclerc]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

Ok,
Firstly let's be frank with regards to the two year old and the packet of polos. Looking at yhe pists on here we are all telling real self confessed shoplifters how to not to pay the charge so the scenario does not count here. Retail crime is a big problem and retailers spend a lot trying to prevent it (was systems, cctv, security staff etc), the costs if which ate all pushed into you and me - the paying customers. #
None of us actually disagree with what you have so far said, ie retail crime means higher prices for you and me. Food wastage comes into that equation as well.
I have worked as a kiss prevention manager for over 15 years and sorry to day this but bluebottle - your percentages ate way out of date, the credit crunch has taken its toll and everyday Joe bloggs accounts fit s fat higher proportion of the offenders now. Another point we seem to dwell on is the fact yhat this is not heard by a criminal court - well most if these offences are not out through a criminal court to minimise in the potential costs to both the retailer, and the police/courts (where a prosecution is sought by the retailer they ate often coerced into not prosecuting by the police. Police in my city will usually pnc an offender and tell the retailer "its his first offence - blah blah can we deaL with it informally" where is the deterrent? And why are we defending thieves who push uo the cost for every1?

If you are unwilling to prosecute for theft from a store then to effectively, punish and fine the offender outside of the judicial process is simply quite ridiculous. Ultimately, you ban them from the shop and that is their punishment. If you are unwilling to prosecute then once you work with another company to send out demands for payment then quite frankly, we will continue on forums to tell people to resist paying the store. Remember, the items are usually recovered in a working order so in effect, what we are paying for is the shoplifters who actually do not get away with it, not those that are caught within the store with the goods. The shop can still sell the goods though.

[TUTTSI]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

What I would like to know is do they catch the organised crime which is accounts for 90% of pilferages or should I say theft, 9% by staff thefts 1% by others including alchoholics, drug addicts, sick people possibly under depression, people under the povery line and youngster doing it for a dare. and then you have poeple accidentially not noticing that they have not paid maybe a distraction, children, mobile phone.... in all general members of the public are picked up as easy targets.

Can we not do under the Feedom of Information Act find out from the stores which use RLP what the percentages are of the catorgories that are caught in which they fall - as the stats must have come from somewhere.

I am a retired policeman and, before I joined the police force, I worked in the retail trade. You will, therefore, appreciate that I have seen both sides of the coin. 90% of retail theft is committed by organised gangs who either steal to order or steal to fund illegal drug-dealing and smuggling and other serious crimes. 9% is committed by retail workers, known as "pilferage". The remaining 1% is committed, largely, by alcoholics and drug addicts and a small number of people who are below the poverty line and are stealing, simply, to live, and youngsters doing it for a "dare".

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

your wish is my command

whats so confusing is if i just put in structure Revenue loss prevention and leave it as that, and get USA reports they freely admit the "officers" are on commision.. here very cloak and dagger!


As a security officer working for a retail organisation, normally a larger operation or national chain, your role will be to make sure that the premises, stock, customers and staff are safe and secure. Essentially, you will help prevent theft and damage and deal with emergencies.
Your duties will include patrolling, securing and monitoring the outlet premises, sometimes with the aid of closed circuit television (CCTV), and supervising at the door.
You will keep accurate records and write short reports, which may be used by the police or courts. Your duties could also involve customer care and giving advice.
Hours and Environment

You could work up to 48 hours a week. This may increasingly include evenings and weekends, given the trend towards 24/7 shopping. Shift work is very common.
You may work on your own or in a small team.You would usually wear a uniform.
Skills and Interests

To be a security officer you will need:

• A mature and responsible attitude to work
• Honesty and integrity
• A polite and helpful manner
• A reasonable level of physical fitness
• The ability to write short reports and follow written instructions
• The confidence to challenge people when necessary
• The ability to use your initiative and make quick decisions to deal with unexpected situations
• The ability to work with technical equipment, such as CCTV.

Entry

You do not usually need academic qualifications to start work as a retail security officer. However, a good general standard of education would be helpful. Previous relevant experience, say working in the police or armed forces, could also be an advantage.
Employers will carry out checks on your personal and work history for up to ten years, so you will need to declare any criminal convictions you may have had.
Training

As a new security officer working for a retail chain, you will receive on-the-job training and supervision from your employer.
As you'll be carrying out duties for your employer, on premises managed and operated by your employer, currently you do not need to be licensed by the SIA - Security Industry Authority. However, please note that licensing in this area is under review.
If you use CCTV equipment or guard valuables in transit, you may need a relevant SIA licence such as the Cash and Valuables in Transit (CVIT) licence. See the SIA website for details.
You could also work towards qualifications such as: NVQ Level 2 in Providing Security Services and City & Guilds, NOCN or ASET awarded Certificate for Security Guards or Security Practitioners.
Skills for Security offer a range of courses relevant to the security industry. They also run a security supervisor training programme, which could help you move into security management.
You could also try the International Professional Security Association. This organisation runs security induction, supervisory management and specialist professional development courses.
Opportunities

Job opportunities are on the increase across the country. However, only a reputable company will give you training, reasonable pay and conditions you want.
With experience, you could progress to senior or chief security officer, then supervisor. You are not restricted to the retail environment.
You could move into another industry, or work for an independent security firm. With additional qualifications, you could go into security management or training, or even set up your own security company.
Annual Income

Annual income figures are intended as a guideline only.Starting salaries can be between £12,000 and £15,000 a year.Experienced officers can earn around £21,000.

when i find the ones I am looking for I will post them up too... why is it where someone asks for something you can never fid the bloody thing?

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

Ok.. this is where it gets every confusing indeed.. i found a job descriptoin for a Loss Prevention Officer (at the supermarket Jamie Oliver shops at) and..
Resources available to the Job-Holder

• Loss Prevention Team
• Profit Protection Field Team
• Profit Protection Process Managers
• Equipment Specialists
• Safe Stores Manager
• Central IT teams

• Central IT systems

SOOOO from what I have read in to it... and it seems to me that the Security Guards report to their manager, who reports to this person , who then liases with RLP.

http://isw.changeworknow.co.uk/sains...PpzjqR7C5SKVc2

[bluebottle]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

What I would like to know is do they catch the organised crime which is accounts for 90% of pilferages or should I say theft, 9% by staff thefts 1% by others including alchoholics, drug addicts, sick people possibly under depression, people under the povery line and youngster doing it for a dare. and then you have poeple accidentially not noticing that they have not paid maybe a distraction, children, mobile phone.... in all general members of the public are picked up as easy targets.

Can we not do under the Feedom of Information Act find out from the stores which use RLP what the percentages are of the catorgories that are caught in which they fall - as the stats must have come from somewhere.

Hi Tuttsi,

The 90% of retail thefts committed by organised gangs (shrinkage), needs fairly good intelligence to catch them. There are Shoplifting Squads in some police forces and national co-ordination, through SOCA, where there is evidence the proceeds of such crime it is being used to fund illegal drugs, prostitution and people trafficking.

The 9% of retail thefts committed by retail staff (pilferage) are normally investigated by a retailer's own security staff. Because the evidence needed to prove theft needs to be beyond all reasonable doubt, although some retailers and so-called "HR consultants" feel that on balance of probability is acceptable, a retailer will gather as much evidence as possible. Retailers have found out just how expensive wrongly accusing someone of theft, including their own staff, can be.

The 1% of retail theft that remains can be attributed to alcoholics and drug addicts stealing to fund their addictions of which 0.1% can be attributed to kids doing it for a dare or people stealing to live.

The cases that come on the LB forums are, mainly, down to over-zealous and incompetent retail security staff and retailers who engage in arrest target-setting. This is something that has to be stamped on very firmly and retailers deterred from the practice, if necessary, by legal sanctions.

[Bill-K]

Re: Civil Recovery - Why not?

What I would like to know is do they catch the organised crime which is accounts for 90% of pilferages or should I say theft, 9% by staff thefts 1% by others including alchoholics, drug addicts, sick people possibly under depression, people under the povery line and youngster doing it for a dare. and then you have poeple accidentially not noticing that they have not paid maybe a distraction, children, mobile phone.... in all general members of the public are picked up as easy targets.
I think this is the problem, Tuttsi. RLP and their ilk are only interested in the 'easy money' targets - and are NOT actually interested in true retail loss prevention. If Tesco's et al lose £100 million per year in total loss through theft, shrinkage, or whatevva - then that is of no concern to the likes of RLP, IMO. If RLP can simply cream off a few million by simply chiselling away at the tip of the iceberg with very little effort or risk, then that's all they are interested in. Tesco et all get their meagre kickback from them, and they all go down the pub to celebrate. Meanwhile, the other £95 million of nicked stuff goes under the radar, as it is too difficult or too risky to chase.
IMHO, for the sake of clawing back a TINY percentage of their 'Retail Loss,' the likes of Tesco, Asda, Boots, etc. are possibly now doing more damage to their public perception than they are recouping in 'Retail Losses.' These leviathans rely on good ole 'family values,' and yet they are now effectively shafting every housewife, mother, father, homemaker, et al who shops with them - simply in order to secure a few quid from a scam that intimidates their SO very, very valued customers.

If they can't be awoken in time to smell the coffee, then iguess it's @$$-kicking time.

....