Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and advice

[1924swiftmobile]

Hi,

Had some issues with a Classic Car dealer over the last month and want a refund but he ignores my request each time I email him.

Here is whats happened so far;

I purchased a 1960's Mini Cooper restoration project about two months ago with the aim to sell it on. The car is in bits with the main rusty body shell and a few boxes of parts. He was going to deliver the car to me and as I wasn't in a rush for it, he was going to deliver it when convenient.


About a month passed and I emailed him for some pictures of the body shell, I wanted to start buying bits for it but needed to refresh my mind on the body panels I needed. After a few emails and a few days he finally came back with the pictures and the news that the roof had "at some point" been stolen...

From the pictures he sent it has been cut on each pillar roughly 2/3 of the way up. So the tops of the windows and door frames have also gone. In the email about it he said "it needed replacing anyway" The roof panel did need repair, but the pillars windows and door frames did not, regardless of this, its not in the least how I bought it.

Instantly I ask if the police have been notified, has he contacted his insurers, does he have CCTV. He said he hadn't contacted the Police (still not sure if he has) he wasn't sure what exactly could be claimed, and the CCTV didn't reach where the car was.

So far in response to my asking for a refund he has offered a new roof (from the wrong car), £2000 towards restoration costs, and finally a new body shell from another Mini. Having turned all these down and asking for a refund each time, I am now having my emails ignored.

it has been approximately 1 month since finding out about the roof, my fear is He will try and deliver a selection of junk in the hope that will be the end of the matter. Is this a matter for the small claims court? I have never been in this situation before, I had a brief look into it and from what I can find out I should be entitled to a refund. Can I take it straight to court? The small claims court website said I should try and resolve the matter, would my emailing count enough? Any help greatly received.

Additional info:
I cant find the company being registered so can only assume he is a sole trader.

So far all my correspondence has been via email and I have a record of it all.

[des8]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

hi and welcome

As I understand it, you purchased the vehicle and left it with him for delivery at a later date.
Whilst with him the roof and parts of supporting pillars wnt AWOL.

What agreement, if any, did you have with him about responsibility for the vehicle?

Once you purchased the vehicle did you insure it?
Once ownership has passed the trader has become a bailee, and, lacking any specific agreement, his main responsibility is to take reasonable care of the vehicle.
His duty of care will be discharged by looking after the vehicle as if it was his own. Presumably it was left on his premises where it was prior to your purchase.
If you were to initiate court proceedings you would have to show he was negligent.
IMO you are unlikely to be successful in a court claim (especially if he employs the services of a solicitor, altho' unlikely for a small claim)

I'll tag [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] to see if he has any comments.

(PS a cooper S being sold by a graduate of School for Scoundrels?)

[1924swiftmobile]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Hi,

Yes thats right. I viewed the car, then about a week later after a few emails I agreed to buy the car. We didnt discuss responsibility as the thought never passed my mind.

Unfortunately not, the vehicle has been off the road for many years and looked like it had too. With regards to him not taking care of it, in one of his emails he does say that the car had become overgrown with weeds, would that count? Along with not calling the police when it was stolen, would that count as negligent?

I think the car was left where I initially saw it before buying it.

So I shouldnt take legal action?

(yes, I would have been better off with a swiftmobile!)

[1924swiftmobile]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Also, just been looking back through my inbox, I recieved a proforma for the car but no reciept after I paid. I dont have the V5 or any other paperwork as that was going to be delivered with the car. The more I think about it, I really am up the creek with no canoe.

[ostell]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

As I see it, and I could be wrong, the agreement was made to purchase the car and the dealer agreed to deliver at his convenience therefore the agreement was not complete until the car was delivered. The dealer cannot now complete the agreed sale and is therefore in default.

[des8]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Good point [MENTION=39331]ostell[/MENTION]... frustration of contract.

[R0b]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Hello,

How much did you pay for the car? Your initial post doesn't quite make clear whether you have inspected the car physically or just seen pictures of it - can you clarify?

What exactly did you agree to buy? You've said its a restoration project but did you and the trader agree what would be sold to you, did you get it in writing or was there an advert you've kept hold of as proof?

Your first mistake is allowing him to deliver the car when "it is convenient". You can't hold him for breach of contract on this as by your own admission you weren't in a rush for it. Even if you aren't in a rush for something, always specify a date for delivery at the very least.

I think you've probably got grounds to bring a claim for breach of contract and negligence (as you pointed out, he should have called the police if stolen and got a crime reference number at least) however if the value of the claim is over £10,000 then it would not fall within the small claims track.

However, before you go jumping in the deep end and threatening with legal action you might want to consider the following:

- is it worth pursuing? You've suggested he might be a sole trader which means unlimited liability i.e. he has personal liability which is against the business he operates. Does he have any assets or money if you do take him to court and are successful? It might be worth carrying out some investigatory work such as whether he owns a house and doing a land registry search which costs £3 to find out, of if he has any other assets you might be aware of. If there's no assets or money available, there's no point pursuing him.

- How much of what he has offered so far represent the amount of what you have already paid e.g. the £2,000? In law, a part payment of debt does not extinguish his liabilities for the remainder of the payment. So if you accept £2,00 and provided it is not accepted in full and final settlement of his liabilities, you could still pursue him for the remainder but at least you have £2,000 back.

- What are you prepared to accept to settle this and move on? Always have a bottom line idea of what you would be willing to accept to bring the dispute to an end in the event that he might offer something but not all of what you have paid.

[1924swiftmobile]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Hi R0b

thanks for youd reply. I paid £9000 for the car. I inspected it at his workshop first. Then after some email correspondance about the gearbox I agreed to buy the car.

I agreed to buy the Mini Cooper restoration project which was as I saw it, one body shell and a couple of pallets of parts. I have photographs of it on the day I saw it. Unfortunately there was no advert for the car as I was told about it by a friend.

Yes, good idea. How would I go about doing a land registry check?

I am almost sick of the thought of it so want a full refund. But if a compromise is better I will have a think what would be resonable.

I have screen shots of all the emails in a word doccument, am I allowed to share them on here? It does have names and emails on it.

[R0b]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Checking the land registry is just one of the ways in which you can carry out investigations into the financial status of a person. You can do this by going to eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/wps/portal/Property_Search but you will need the address and postcode of the property you want to obtain information about.

Alternatively, there are many enquiry agents who carry out what is known as a pre-litigation report which details information about the individual or company and their financial status. This could include things like whether they have any CCJs against them or property ownership etc.

A commonly used enquiry agent is www.vilcol.com/services/financial-status but there are others out there and they vary their price according to what you need so if you go down this route then you should make some initial inquiries. You can do a google search for more info on this by searching Enquiry Agent pre-litigation report.

[des8]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Isn't the nub of this matter "when was it intended that ownership of the car passed from dealer to OP"?

If it was on purchase, the damage would be the OP's, if on delivery it would be the dealer's?

It seems that nothing was formally agreed on this point, but from my own dealings with car breakers and classic dealers I would have worked on basis that when I paid my money the car was mine and delivery/collection was my responsibility (even if dealer was going to do it later).
Sale of Goods Act 1979 sec 17
17Property passes when intended to pass.

(1)

Where there is a contract for the sale of specific or ascertained goods the property in them is transferred to the buyer at such time as the parties to the contract intend it to be transferred.

(2)

For the purpose of ascertaining the intention of the parties regard shall be had to the terms of the contract, the conduct of the parties and the circumstances of the case.

[Kati]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

I have screen shots of all the emails in a word doccument, am I allowed to share them on here? It does have names and emails on it.

I could redact them and post them up if [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] or [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] agreed they were useful??

[des8]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

I could redact them and post them up if @R0b or @des8 agreed they were useful??

I always think the more info the better.
Often we have to tease the information out.

[1924swiftmobile]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

Thinking along the lines of what [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] has mentioned, even if I were to take him to court and win, would he have the money or assets to repay me. I cannot find his home address anywhere, which could also be in his wifes name. The cars he mainly deals in are Japanese imports, so wouldn't necessarily be registered over here or in his name. When I saw the paperwork for the Mini it was still registered in the previous owners name.

My main question is now not weather would I win in court, but If I did go to court, would I be better off for it? I may win but he may end up with money and car at the end of it.

[des8]

Re: Classic Car dealer will not issue refund on faulty not delivered car help and adv

There is no reason why you should not name the trader and his business.
We might be able to trace him or some one on here might even know him,