Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

[kline25]

ADVICE PLEASE! Very silly matter that has resulted in me being taken to magistrates court over the colour of bin bags .
I am a student in Cardiff. I live with 4 other people under a joint tenancy (all friends, not randomers) but I am the lead tenant.

In December my housemate saw the bin men and asked if she could put a black bag outside for them as usually they have to be in cream bags but we didn't have any left. The bin man said ok go get them and ill take them. She got them and he put them on the truck. They drove above 5 doors down and the OTHER bin man (2 of them work on the truck) came out yelling about how they don't take black bin bags all aggressively and my housemate was like "I know thats why I asked your colleague and he said it was ok to bring them out then took them!" Anyway she then went inside after the shouting and the bin man had took the black bags off and dumped them outside a house 5 doors to the left (we were unaware he did this as he just shouted then carried on with his job.. we would of got the bin bags or took them back if he said lol). The next morning enforcement officers (people who go around checking for stuff early morning) found the black bin bags and opened them to find our post and obviously thought we just littered them away from our house being cheeky. They then sent us a £100 FPN fine. We then called the council and explained what happened and actually got through to the man who took the photo of the bins outside next door. He said "sorry, the binman who took the bags must of been new, I just though you fly tipped and left it there, dont worry about the fine well call you soon but its ok it wont go anywhere". **We CALLED because the council website doesnt have like an 'appeal' portal on their website and recommends calling** . We don't have any email or proof he said its ok as we were all sat round on speaker phone and he said its fine its not a massive deal its just bins and a misunderstanding....

FAST FORWARD TO TODAY! and I get a letter from the council saying I (I wasn't even there, its just my name and my name ONLY because im the lead tenant) am being summoned to magistrates court for a criminal offence under section 46 of the environmental protection act 1990!!! wtf! in the witness statement they've put that we basically just dumped our black bags outside another house instead of putting them outside of our house in cream bags with a red stripe! The bags were in our back garden because we had no cream bags as you only get ONE roll per term so we put all our rubbish in black bags and were going to wait for another roll to rebag them but the bin man said to bring them!!

Im going to call citizens advice monday morning then the council and ask to speak to the enforcement officer who signed the statement and filed this whole thing. Do you think they'll let us pay the £100 FPN fine now (even though we didnt do anything i genuinely would rather just pay it and be done with it) and pay the £95 prosecution costs and be done with it? Or does anyone think they wont believe us because we didnt get anyones name when we called (should of!) and all we have is a phone bill that showed we called the councils number? We got transfered to a lot of different people and have noones name or any evidence really

If we call monday and they say either "no you did do that!" or "sorry its too late weve sent it to court now so you have to go" - will I end up getting a criminal record with a larger fine? I assume we will lose in court in we plead not guilty as we basically have no evidence. And is this criminal record the type that will stop me getting jobs and being able to travel or work abroad? I was supposed to go australia the end of this year to work...

Very stressed as I wasn't involved and it's under my name and mine only, and can basically get a criminal record for putting rubbish in 2 black bin bags instead of cream ones... and that the bin man said we could bring them out!! we didnt even have them outside to start with!!

Any advice would be great!!

[Kati]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

From the council's website https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resid...s/default.aspx

Extra red striped waste bags



If you are a larger household of 6 or more, you may request extra red striped bags for waste that cannot be recycled. You will be visited at your home by a recycling advisor to discuss your request. You will need to show us that you make full use of the weekly recycling and food waste service e.g. full green bags and food waste caddy at your property. If you would like to organise an additional bag assessment, please contact C2C on 2087 2087.

Have you appealed??

This may be useful too - https://www.cardiffstudents.com/advi...ted/community/ xx

[kline25]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

Hi there! Yes we were aware we couldn't get more bags that why they were in the back in black bags and my housmate asked before she took them to the bin man.
Apparently there is no appeal process thats why we immediately called when we got the £100 FPN because it was a misunderstanding, and left it at that because the gentleman on the phone said it was alright he understood the new bin man shouldnt of said yes because if he said no we would of taken it to the back garden, and he apologised for the shouting of the second bin man.... very confused and just wondering if on monday they dont let us pay I'll end up with a criminal record for wrong colour bin bags!!

From the council's website https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resid...s/default.aspx


Have you appealed??

This may be useful too - https://www.cardiffstudents.com/advi...ted/community/ xx

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

You need to ask the Claimant to produce to you the evidence that they are to rely upon that you, and you personally left the bin bags in the place they were found. Have you been given a court date or is it just threats at this stage

[kline25]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

But either way its against the house so its against me as im the lead tenant
and yeah we have lol its a date in june so its actually happening...

You need to ask the Claimant to produce to you the evidence that they are to rely upon that you, and you personally left the bin bags in the place they were found. Have you been given a court date or is it just threats at this stage

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

Ok so what is the claim? is it that you left / put the bin bags 5 doors away. or that the bags from your property were found 5 doors away. or something else

[kline25]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

our bags were found outside the other house. but the binmen must of chucked them off the van down the street, and it just looked like we tried to litter them away from our own house. the annoying thing is we called the council and explained the new binman took it etc then the other one dumped it hence the FPN and they said it was ok! We just took the guys word for it and didnt get anything in writing..
Im just hoping monday when I call the enforcement officer who found the bags and made up this summon that theyll understand what im saying and even be able to find out who we spoke to if we can find the date and time of our call and dismiss it all - i wouldnt even mind paying the FPN £100 and the £97 prosecution costs they put in the letter, just to end it.

Ok so what is the claim? is it that you left / put the bin bags 5 doors away. or that the bags from your property were found 5 doors away. or something else

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

So to summarise;
1. your house mate put 2 x rubbish bags on a council run bin lorry
2. the 2 x bags were found down the road
3. the only way they could have got there is if the bin men contracted by the council put them there
4. The council, via their contracted enforcement agent, is claiming you were responsible for putting the 2 x bags down the road.
5 your choice now is pay £200 for something you didn't do or challenge it
6. To challenge it you sign a declaration at a solicitors (cost around £5)
7 A copy of the the declaration should be sent to an officer of the court, along with your explanation of how the bags must of been put there by a council contractor. The declaration should be worded along the lines as follows;
I xxxx xxxx Make this declaration under Section 7 of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835.
I do solemnly and sincerely declare that; I xxxx xxxx did not leave bags of household waste in xxxx street. This document is delivered addressed to the designated officer of the court by Royal Mail recorded delivery service pursuant to section 14(1)(2) of the MCA 1980.

DECLARED AT:


SIGNED:


DATE:


Before me:

Solicitor/Commissioner for Oaths:


.

[kline25]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

1-4 is correct yes. Also she didnt put them on the lorry, she asked the binman if she can bring them out from the back garden because theyre in the backgarden because we dont have the right bag yet and he said thats ok hell take them anyway.
On point 5 - we dont have the option to pay the £200 (£100FPN and £97 prosecution costs)! the letter says they tried to get the FPN but we didnt pay (because over the phone they said it was ok but we have no evidence) so its going to court and we have to defend it there.
I just want information on mainly;
1. Do you think monday morning when we contact the enforcement agent who found the bags, wrote the report and is basically the one doing all this, do you think if we explain monday morning on the phone to them and also mention their colleague said it was going to be ok when we rang on this date (ill look for the date and time on my housemates phone bill) that the officer will say either
-1 "Ok i understand it was a misunderstanding and my colleague said it was ok, so sorry for that well drop the court summon - i just assumed you tried to litter and get away with it"
-2 "ok thanks for calling but i need you to pay the FPN and prosecution costs already incurred and well drop the case" (HAPPY TO PAY THOSE FINES ANYWAY)
-3 "sorry its too late I sent it to court so well have to settle it there" and they accept us saying not guilty.
or -4 "no you did commit this offence so see you in court" and they fight us in court (will probably lose as we have no evidence we spoke to anyone lol)

and also does this sort of thing stop me from getting a job/travelling/working abroad? I know FPN's don't, but as they've put this as a 'criminal offence', if found guilty I will get a criminal record for it if found guilty lol...

ALSO (sorry to go on, thanks for reading this i really appreciate it) - my housemate who did all of this with the binmen said on monday shell tell the officer it was her and NOT ME and she will say that in court also if they dont drop the summon. Is it possible the court will find me not guilty just on the basis it wasnt me someone else is honestly saying it was them. Or will they just then take her to court or is it either way stuck in my name because im the lead tenant (never offering to be lead tenant again lol).

Any responses would be great and highly appreciated as we are broke students and this is the only advice we can get/afford ever - any solicitor costs or anyone we have to get involved, I'll have to pay for with my student loan lol (if that covers solicitor fees and court judgement fines)

So to summarise;
1. your house mate put 2 x rubbish bags on a council run bin lorry
2. the 2 x bags were found down the road
3. the only way they could have got there is if the bin men contracted by the council put them there
4. The council, via their contracted enforcement agent, is claiming you were responsible for putting the 2 x bags down the road.
5 your choice now is pay £200 for something you didn't do or challenge it
6. To challenge it you sign a declaration at a solicitors (cost around £5)
7 A copy of the the declaration should be sent to an officer of the court, along with your explanation of how the bags must of been put there by a council contractor. The declaration should be worded along the lines as follows;
I xxxx xxxx Make this declaration under Section 7 of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835.
I do solemnly and sincerely declare that; I xxxx xxxx did not leave bags of household waste in xxxx street. This document is delivered addressed to the designated officer of the court by Royal Mail recorded delivery service pursuant to section 14(1)(2) of the MCA 1980.

DECLARED AT:


SIGNED:


DATE:


Before me:

Solicitor/Commissioner for Oaths:


.

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

i am still not clear on the charge is it A)your household waste was found in the street or B) you put it there or something else.
At the moment as i see it they can't prove you put it there but the contents probably had your identification in.

A signed declaration (which must be true) saying you did or did not do something puts the claimant in a position which they have to prove and and produce evidence to the contrary.
Providing you write the declaration a solicitor will only charge around £5 to sign it. If you send a copy to the court and the enforcement agent. The agent will have to produce proof or withdraw the charge (or lose the case )

Also any contact should be by email so you have a written response, as you have already found, out they say one thing and do another. only phone to chase up a written response. Its always worth adding on your email you have 7 days to respond.

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

My understanding is you will not get a criminal record (perhaps someone can confirm) as the database is held by the police. i believe it is only when you are arrested and charged with a criminal offence.

[suffering]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

Follow this link for record-able offences http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0001139_en.pdf

[kline25]

Re: Taken to court for wrong colour bin bags!!

i am still not clear on the charge is it A)your household waste was found in the street or B) you put it there or something else.
At the moment as i see it they can't prove you put it there but the contents probably had your identification in.

A signed declaration (which must be true) saying you did or did not do something puts the claimant in a position which they have to prove and and produce evidence to the contrary.
Providing you write the declaration a solicitor will only charge around £5 to sign it. If you send a copy to the court and the enforcement agent. The agent will have to produce proof or withdraw the charge (or lose the case )

Also any contact should be by email so you have a written response, as you have already found, out they say one thing and do another. only phone to chase up a written response. Its always worth adding on your email you have 7 days to respond.

Both A & B. It was found in the street outside someone else's house because the second bin man must of got angry after shouting at my housemate and dumped it and refused to take it. Apparently on the phone to the council before, the guy who said it was going to be 'ok' said they must of thrown it off because they get in trouble for taking black bin bags. The evidence they have is that they opened the bin bags and we had out post inside and various other things with our name on, and previous letters from the council that they send to every student house saying "blah blah make sure you use the right bags". So to them they gave us 'warnings' and it looks like we ignored them and just tried to dump our bags lol. Going to call CAB in the morning then the council to see if they can drop the case. The letters I've been sent clearly say if found guilty I could be fined a charge of upto £1000 and I'll receive a criminal record