Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

[R0b]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Given that your last letter before action was sent some months ago, it would be prudent to send a final one, but this time you need to follow through with it if they fail to respond. If you haven't already then I would suggest you address it to Vodafone's legal department at their registered office.

I have a few more questions to ask:

1. Do you own a Vodafone account at the time this was taken out and was this phone added to that account? The reason I ask is because you would normally most companies have a verification system where you need to give certain information and have to give some kind of password before the account can be accessed. If the fraudster set up a new account then the notes referring to phone calls about euro traveller and roaming are irrelevant since the fraudster would be able to access the account at any time.

2. Do you know how the account was set up, was it done in one of their retail shops and have you asked for a copy of the contract that would have supposedly been signed?

3. Your notes are suggesting that you never received any correspondence from Vodafone, do you know what address was set up for the account, had it been changed anytime or soon after the contract was set up. Is there an email address on the account and whether this email address is one you use if paperless bills are activated?

4. It does seem strikingly odd that Vodafone are adamant that no fraud has occurred especially if the bank have concluded that the signature is fraudulent, do you have any correspondence from the bank which confirms this?

5. Were you in Portugal on the day in question where the account spend was over £100 in one day, were any of your friends or family in Portugal at that time?

If you do issue a claim against them, the standard going damages are around £750 but because this has been ongoing it is possible if found in your favour you could be awarded a much higher sum since the length of time this has been going on for. I would not be surprised if you could claim a few thousand as a result of this but at the same time if that is something you are claiming you will also need to pay the appropriate court fees. Unless you know how much you are seeking in damages, the claim would be unspecified and you would suggest damages within a bracket for the court to decide the final amount. For example, if you were to claim an amount between £1,500 and £3,000 then the court fees is made up of £115 to issue the claim and then when a trial date is fixed you would pay a further £105. Obviously the lesser damages you seek the less amount you pay for.

You might find it difficult to obtain this on a no-win no-fee basis as there seems to be a lot of work involved and any sum of money they will likely take a 25% cut and for the potential damages might not be worth it for them. So the reality is that if you want to bring a claim, then you might have to do it yourself.

I am sure some of us on here can steer you in the right direction and how to approach a court hearing on the day, it is relatively inform so as long as you have your evidence set out clearly and concisely that is most important. You seem to have plenty of evidence to suggest a fraud has occurred and it will be up to Vodafone to prove otherwise.

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Thanks again for your response.

In answer to your questions:

1. No, I have never held a Vodafone account.

2. No. I have asked numerous times (all recorded) for any and all information relating to the setting up of this account and copies of the ID and supporting documents (both proof of signature and proof of address) used to open this account. They have repeatedly ignored this request. I had hoped that this information would be included in the DPA requested documents but it wasn't.

3. I believe that the address used was different from mine. I never received any correspondence to my actual address until after the fraud was discovered. It was a nightmare even getting Vodafone to discuss the account with me as I could not pass the DPA questions.

4. I have kept all correspondence from all parties, including the bank and the police. I have a crime reference number from the police and a brief explanation from the bank saying that they have investigated the DDI and found that the signature on it is fraudulent. As a result they recovered all monies paid (not sure if I mentioned it previously but the fraud was discovered when I noticed that money had been leaving my account each month, wish I'd noticed sooner!).

5. I have no connection with Portugal whatsoever.

From what the police said at the time of the investigation they seemed to think that my bank details had been compromised. I have my suspicions because there was a 'company' when I was at uni offering a small fee for 'market research'. The guy seemed professional and many people filled in his questionnaire, he asked for a sort code and account number to send the payment. It was maybe 2 months after this that the account was set up. I feel very naive for having fallen for this and for not noticing the money coming out for so long, and believe me I have taken a lot of stick for it! Its one of the reasons that I feel so bad about it!

Thanks again for all your help. I will draft a final demand letter this evening and post it on here (redacted, obviously). I am happy to pay the fees to have this heard in court as I feel the evidence is pretty damning. I just want to ensure that it is done properly.

[Diana M]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

I received a letter from Vodafone UK Legal Team in April confirming that they have been notified by Metropolitan Police Mobile Phone Crime that this is part of a larger criminal investigation, a number of individuals have been arrested and that the court case will happen in September.

Since then, I received lots of advice about taking this matter to a solicitor and to the media.

Contempt of Court law may prevent any media coverage now that arrests have been made and individuals charged (unless reporting restrictions are lifted).

The general idea of Civil Contempt is to prevent the reporting of material which might prejudice a fair trial by influencing the jury to think the Defendant(s) might be guilty. (I used to be a court reporter for a National Newspaper.)

So you'll have to wait for the conclusion of the Trial or for reporting restrictions to be lifted before a journalist will be free to report the story. Anything done before then could scupper a very expensive criminal investigation if the case collapses due to media coverage.

If you've given a statement to the police (you say you have a crime reference number) do you know if that will that be included in the Trial as evidence?

On a practical level you may wish to consider adding a Notice of Correction to your CRA file as a holding position perhaps with a statement from Vodafone if they're willing. However since they may be heavily involved in the criminal case they may be advise by their legal team to keep a distance at this moment in time.

This forum has an Authorised Representative from Vodafone so maybe send him a PM and ask for his intervention and/or help?

I would think the best time to issue legal proceedings (if appropriate) would be once the outcome of the trial is known and not before. What if the Defendants are found Not Guilty?

You would also need to associate the criminal case with your particular account if you want to use the case to support your evidence. The Defendants may be found guilty of the specimen cases put forward by the CPS but that doesn't necessarily mean a fraud was committed against you and your account unless there's proof/evidence.

I also think the time to make a claim for damages would be once you can quantify your loss which can only realistically be done when you have an 'end date' for the damage being caused (i.e. when the default is removed).

I'm afraid annoyingly this is a situation where I think patience is a virtue.

(Sorry if some of these issues have already been covered on your thread which I've not read in full.)

Di

[Diana M]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

You might find it difficult to obtain this on a no-win no-fee basis as there seems to be a lot of work involved and any sum of money they will likely take a 25% cut and for the potential damages might not be worth it for them. So the reality is that if you want to bring a claim, then you might have to do it yourself.

I think the OP should shop around for a law firm which does Fixed Fee work which doesn't necessarily include a 25% (or any %) cut of the damages won or a success fee if instructed on a CFA (No Win No Fee).

I can't speculate on this particular situation without knowing all the facts but there is always the potential for a solicitor to fight for legal costs even in the Small Claims Court. Or negotiate payment of legal costs as part of any pre-trial settlement. This can be the case when the other party wishes to avoid media attention which could open the floodgates to other cases against them.

I would also suggest the OP should check any insurance cover they have (home or car etc) to see whether that policy includes Legal Expenses cover.

Di

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Hello, thanks for your reply Diana.

I did send out an initial letter to a few media outlets but then told the ones that replied that I have decided to wait for the court case to conclude as I do not want to jeopardise it in any way.

I have no information regarding the case other than provided by Vodafone in the letter above. I was unaware of there even being one until that letter was sent.

I have added a dispute to my credit file but this was rejected by Vodafone who said that the debt was just.

I appreciate your comments on the outcome of the trial, but for me this should hold no relevance to my case. The fact is that this account is fraudulent and I believe that Vodafone have been negligent in allowing the account to be opened in the first place and for not acting appropriately once the fraud was detected. I feel that the evidence in the account notes, the lack of supporting documents/ID used to open the account, the police investigation and the banks investigation are evidence enough to show that this account is fraudulent. I am unconvinced of the need to associate the criminal case with my particular account?

I think at this stage I should be quantifying my damages and pressing on with a civil case regardless of the outcome of the criminal case, having been patient with Vodafone for the past few years. Unless there is something I am missing? Will a court be willing to hear a civil case regardless of the status of the criminal case, which may or may not directly relate to my account and I feel should have no bearing anyway?

Any help appreciated, thanks again for your reply!

[R0b]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

I think the OP should shop around for a law firm which does Fixed Fee work which doesn't necessarily include a 25% (or any %) cut of the damages won or a success fee if instructed on a CFA (No Win No Fee).

I can't speculate on this particular situation without knowing all the facts but there is always the potential for a solicitor to fight for legal costs even in the Small Claims Court. Or negotiate payment of legal costs as part of any pre-trial settlement. This can be the case when the other party wishes to avoid media attention which could open the floodgates to other cases against them.

I would also suggest the OP should check any insurance cover they have (home or car etc) to see whether that policy includes Legal Expenses cover.

Di

You are quite right the OP should look at other options such as fixed fee and potential legal expenses insurance which was something I missed off.

I would think the best time to issue legal proceedings (if appropriate) would be once the outcome of the trial is known and not before. What if the Defendants are found Not Guilty?

I think this is where we have to disagree, it is irrelevant about whether or not the Defendant's are found not guilty in a criminal setting, that does not prevent or prejudice any claim in a civil case, particularly as the civil standard of proof is much lower. Sure, a conviction would assist the OP to show on balance that it was a fraudulent account but even if there is a not guilty verdict, there seems to be quite a bit of evidence so far such as the bank confirming a fraudulent signature and difficulties in getting past the verification process to suggest fraudulent activities.

The real question is whether it was accurate to record and/or continue reporting a default against the OP when Vodafone had become aware or had suspicions, that the account was or may have been opened fraudulently. If the answer is no, there is a breach of the DPA and damages therefore follow. The fact that Vodafone are unwilling to remove the default at least until the conclusion of the criminal trial further aggravates matters.

I also think the time to make a claim for damages would be once you can quantify your loss which can only realistically be done when you have an 'end date' for the damage being caused (i.e. when the default is removed).

I also have to disagree with this, quantification and removal of the default should be done at the same time in the same claim. Most breaches of the DPA for inaccurate data are likely to be an unspecified claim since it is often difficult to quantify the loss or damage caused, so there is no harm in asking for the court to determine those damages based on the loss or damage or loss of opportunity etc. leading up to the hearing as inevitably, if the OP was successful, the 'end date' would be the date of the hearing following judgment.

Of course it is up to the OP to decide, but the longer she waits the more potential loss it could cause her and therefore it makes sense to mitigate those losses by issuing a claim sooner rather than later.

Patience is not always the best option to take.

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Do you any information about the criminal case being heard at all?

No! :-(

Literally the only reference to a court case is in the letter above. No mention of details, a date or anything else. That is the first admission from Vodafone of there being any relation to fraud too.

[Diana M]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

the only reference to a court case is in the letter above. No mention of details, a date or anything else. That is the first admission from Vodafone of there being any relation to fraud too.

Then ask yourself the question why did Vodafone 'link' your situation to the criminal case in their letter if there's no possible connection?

Identy theft with mobile phone contracts is not uncommon yet they have named a specific criminal case in relation to investigating your account.

I still say patience is not only a virtue but wise right now.

Di

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Then ask yourself the question why did Vodafone 'link' your situation to the criminal case in their letter if there's no possible connection?

Identy theft with mobile phone contracts is not uncommon yet they have named a specific criminal case in relation to investigating your account.

I still say patience is not only a virtue but wise right now.

Di

They state that they have been notified by Met Police that this account is part of a wider operation, for which arrests have been made and a court case is due. But they have also stated, in writing, that there is no evidence of fraud on the account, the debt is still collectable and the default notice is justified. I contest all 3 and can supply compelling evidence to the contrary.

What makes you say that patience is wise? Court cases can take years to go through and all I have to go on is the vague mention of their being one from Vodafone, with no actual hearing date. I don't believe that Vodafone will be proactive in supplying me with any information without being chased for it. How long would you suggest I should wait for before I do anything?

[R0b]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Abbie, you need to do what is best and right for you. You have two conflicting positions from Diana and myself and there will always be a case that a conflict of opinions will come up like this.

The weblink provided by Vodafone does not work and says '404 - Not Found' so likely the page has been removed. I did however come across this link from Action Fraud - Mobile Phone Scam. Assuming that is what Vodafone are referring the article suggests that mobile phone operators were well aware of this since 2014, yet, as you rightly pointed out, they have contradicted themselves by suggesting no fraud has occurred and suddenly admitting albeit indirectly, that you could have been a victim of this type of fraud.

Diana believes that patience is key but you are also correct in that fraud trials, especially where things can get complex, can take months if not years to conclude. You need to be acutely aware that there is a limitation period on bringing claims like this which will be from the date the damage was suffered i.e. the date of the adverse entries on your credit report. So if the criminal trial does last for another 3 years then you could be out of time for bringing a claim unless you rely on other sections of the law that could allow you to bring a claim but I would caution against relying on these types of exceptions.

At the same time, that does not mean to say my way is the right way to go about things. You can issue a claim but yes you could potentially lose out on maximising any damages or losses suffered if you bring a claim too early and not realising the potential it has caused. Yes the claim could be stayed but there is generally a presumption that claims should not be stayed unless there is compelling evidence that it would prejudice the criminal trial. On the more positive side, at least you know there is an end in sight by going down the legal route than sitting on things waiting to happen. Like Diana said, you could look at legal expenses insurance if you have it and see if you are covered, or alternatively you could look for a fixed sum arrangement though I would be surprised given the complexities already and spanning over two years it is unlikely to be cheap i.e. <£500.

You need to decide what is best for you, whether it is the long game in waiting it out with a view to pursuing the claim at a later date and risk not obtaining further credit in the meantime due to the default, or pressing ahead and commencing legal proceedings with a view to having the default removed and the potential risks of having the claim stayed anyway and/or not obtaining damages reflecting to the extent that any damage or loss has been suffered.

We can't tell you what you must do but you've been given pretty much both sides of the coin and I don't think I have anything further to add in terms of what is in favour of you so it comes down to your own gut feeling. Whichever way you go, I would suggest you starting creating a timeline of key events as well as any evidence which is substantial and could support your case plus any gaps or arguments that Vodafone may have to dispute your claim. Once you've done that you should be in a position to write or prepare a letter before action to Vodafone (assuming you don't instruct solicitors). The only question will be the amount of damages, if any, you would want to claim back from them.

[Diana M]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

This forum has an Authorised Representative from Vodafone so maybe send him a PM and ask for his intervention and/or help?

Or contact [MENTION=19723]Lee Vodafone Company Rep[/MENTION] by PM http://legalbeagles.info/forums/memb...ne-Company-Rep

Diana M

[Vodafone Company Rep]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Hi Abbie,

I've just replied to your PM.

Kind regards,

Lee

Vodafone Social Media

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Hi Abbie,

I've just replied to your PM.

Kind regards,

Lee

Vodafone Social Media

Form completed as advised, please let me know when you have reviewed it.

[warwick65]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Abbie

If Lee cannot sort out your problem have you emailed the CEO of vodafone
nick.jeffery@vodafone.com

It usually gets a response and a resolution

As for any court action, a couple of points- if you were to be claiming damages, how can you actually quantify them until the situation is resolved ?Even when resolved you still need to quantify then

Going to court can be very expensive as a LiP if you don't do the right process so think very carefully . Of course small claims can minimise the the chances of that although costs can still be awarded if you lose in a small claim

[AbbieA]

Re: Taking Court Action Against Vodafone - Remove Default Notice

Morning Guys,

I have tried engaging with Lee again, having already tried numerous times on the MSE forum. If you would like to have a laugh about it read all the correspondence on there, Vodafone do not paint themselves in a good light!

I have also already contacted the CEO, which is what actually prompted the letter in the picture (not the pre-action letters I sent). I have put together a brief timeline below:

July 14:
Fraudulent account set up in my name.
July 15:
Fraud discovered and immediately reported to the Police and ActionFraud who investigated and provided me with a crime reference number.
Reported to Vodafone who said they carried out a fraud investigation but deemed there to be no fraud found. They have asserted that the account is still collectable and have applied a default to my credit score.
I then requested that Vodafone supply me with details of any fraud investigation conducted, the identification documents and proof of address given when the account was opened and all other information pertinent to the fraud investigation, which they refused.
I also reported this to my bank who conducted their own investigation, determined that the signature used to set up the Direct Debit Instruction was fraudulent and recovered all monies paid to Vodafone.
August-November 17:
Numerous attempts to reason with Vodafone. 3 separate fraud investigations were conducted by them and all deemed that there was no fraud found.
I contacted the Financial Ombudsman who referred me to the Consumer Ombudsman who advised that they were unable to help at this time, I believe due to lack of evidence. Reasons stated as being the DDI matches the address, no fraudulent usage (just normal usage to UK landlines and mobiles) and the handset chosen was a low value handset not typically used by fraudsters.
December 16:
I made a request for information under the provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998 and obtained documents relating to the account. This was supplied on the 23rd of January and showed that Vodafone had been told by my bank that the Direct Debit Instruction contained a fraudulent signature and that the account had been referred to their internal Fraud team numerous times (for suspicious usage in Europe and £100’s in calls to Portugal and Spain) before the fraud was discovered by myself.
January 17:
Having obtained this I tried again with the Consumer Ombudsman who advised that I could not reopen an investigation that had previously been closed.
February 17:
I then tried the ICO following advice on the MSE forum. I supplied them with all the evidence I have gathered and after several correspondences and they said they will investigate and have written a letter to Vodafone, though I haven’t heard anything since.
I also sent my first Pre Action Protocol letter, which has never been acknowledged or responded to.
Around the same time I first engaged with Lee from Vodafone on the MSE forum. The whole debacle can be read there but they basically denied receiving any emails, then said they had received the emails, then that they haven’t received any emails. No progress was made.
March 17:
Follow up letter to the Pre Action letter was then sent, also ignored.
I was also given the CEO email on this Forum at roughly the same time so emailed him, which prompted a response saying they will reopen the fraud investigation (having previously carried out 3 fraud investigations and stated that no fraud has been found each time and that they would not open any more investigations).
April 17:
I received a letter from the UK legal Team in response to the email (same one posted on here). In it Vodafone stated that this account is part of a wider fraud investigation for which arrests had been made and the case is due to be heard in September.
April – September 17:
Sought legal advice, most common response being that I should wait until the results of the trial.
September 17:
I am now concerned that I do not actually have any details of the trial other than the vague mention that I managed to extract from Vodafone after nearly 2 years of denial. I feel that I need to be proactive again and most likely will have to follow through and instigate a court case to get Vodafone to respond.
I have also contacted Lee from Vodafone for advice and for details of the court case mentioned by the UK Legal Team (ie date of hearing? results?).