Used Car Fault

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

If there is a problem with the gearbox it is difficult to see how the dealer could wriggle out of repairing it.

Regarding your sound system, the CRA 2015 applies to all products.
If a product fails within the first six months it is presumed to have been faulty at time of sale and it is upto the seller to prove the fault did not exist when sold.
I would think it will depend on the actual fault as to whether or not the dealer can show this.
I know nothing about such systems or why they would fail.

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

Thanks again.

I'll raise it with them and see what they say.

Cheers

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

Still waiting for the results of the independent report, should hear something tomorrow hopefully.

Found yet another issue though...

Needed to replace one of the side lights, which requires taking the front bumper off. Upon doing so, I found some serious damage to the front crash bar (see pictures below).

I wasn't informed of this damage when buying the car but was repeatedly told that the car was in very good condition with no damage to any of the panels. It was impossible for me to see the damage without removing the bumper, so there is no way I could have spotted it before purchasing the car.

I did notice that the front bumper itself was not aligned perfectly when viewing the car and questioned whether it had been in an accident, but was told that they (the salesman / dealer) had just clipped a curb and dislodged it. They assured me they would check it and sort it out for me, and when I went to purchase it, it had been refitted correctly, but with no mention of any crash bar damage.

My understanding of crash bars is that they distribute any impacting force to reduce damage to the rest of the car, but that doesn't mean that there isn't further structural damage that I can't see. I believe that if the crash bar is damaged, it should be replaced as it loses it's structural rigidity and is not safe.

Now, it's past the 30 days, but has only been 3 months since I purchased the car. However, I'm still in the process of sorting my initial dispute about the gearbox (which was raised within the 30 days).

Starting to feel like I've been sold a lemon with the amount of problems I'm finding. I'd still rather not return it (unless it really is the best thing to do) and I'm not sure if that is even an option anymore. What course of action would you suggest now?

Pictures of damage:



Thanks again.

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

Once a crash bar has been compromised, it is not going to offer its designed level of protection, and should be replaced.
A check of the tracking with a four wheel laser set up would if the tracking is wildly out indicate more severe problems.

So yet another item that needs the dealer to sort.

As they implied the car had not been damaged ( but was repeatedly told that the car was in very good condition with no damage to any of the panels), but omitted to advise you of actual damage (which should have been noted when they refitted the bumper) they breached The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading (Amendment) Regulations 2014.
Have you carried out an HPI check to see if the incident that caused the damage has been recorded?

As you wish to retain the car start pressing for a price reduction (CRA 2015 Sec 24)

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

I didn't do an HPI check as it was an official licensed main dealer and assumed they would have thoroughly checked the history beforehand. I can't remember if queried them on this at the time, but I can ask if they did one and whether they have this information available.

With the amount of hassle this is causing and the likelihood of finding even more problems, I wouldn't be opposed to pursuing rejection of the car, but I'm not sure if I've passed the point where I could initiate this.

In theory they still haven't resolved one of the problems that I brought up within the first 30 days, but are in the process of determining if there is a fault, however I have been driving the car since reporting those issues.

-Can I request a rejection at this stage?
-If so, would I face a large deduction from the purchase price for "fair use" (I've done >2000 miles since purchasing the car)?
-I have had the car serviced, changed the oil and filter, replaced the auxiliary belt, and upgraded the sidelights during ownership of the car, would these things have any affect on what I would be refunded?

Thanks once again, your advice is really helpful and much appreciated. It's just a shame this is taking so long to resolve.

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

The short term right to reject: the clock stops ticking when the fault is reported and a repair requested. It does not start ticking again until the vehicle has been repaired.
So yes you can still reject the vehicle under short term rights.
You might have to prove the undiagnosed fault actually exists, unless some of the other faults fit in.
Further, if the consumer opts for a repair, the trader has to do this within a reasonable time.
How are they determining if there is a fault if you have the car in your possession? Are they psychic

Under the short term right to reject "fair usage deduction" is not an option for the trader! and you could claim damages (CRA 2015 sec 19 (11) 9a)) for your expenses such as servicing etc.


"didn't do an HPI check as it was an official licensed main dealer and assumed they would have thoroughly checked the history beforehand. I can't remember if queried them on this at the time, but I can ask if they did one and whether they have this information available."

Would you trust their response?

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

Ah, I forgot about how the clock stops ticking.

I was disputing the issue for the majority of the time, they denied any fault, but said they would cover the cost to get an independent engineer from the RMI to test drive the car and provide a report then go from there. The test drive was on 9/12/16, and I'm still waiting for the dealer to get back to me with the results. The independent engineer posted the results by mail on 15/12/16, so hopefully I will hear from the dealer tomorrow.

Does it not matter that I continued to use the car after reporting the fault? I thought I read somewhere that you have to stop using the car if you plan on rejecting it?

Fair point, I trust them about as far as I can throw them... I find it hard to believe a main dealer would accept a car without carrying out an HPI check though. How would they know what to offer for the car otherwise (it was a part-exchange on a brand new Citroen)?

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

It depends why you are rejecting it as to whether or not continued use weakens your case.
EG not fit for use... but you continue to run around in it,,,,hmm!
EG not of satisfactory quality..... this would not necessarily mean not fit for use
EG not as described....................... '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''

Can you not contact the engineer to obtain, if not a copy of the report, a verbal comment?
Or do you think the dealer will give you an unredacted copy?

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

I see your point.

The whole thing with the independent engineer has been "funny". The dealer commissioned it, so apparently I have no say or authority.

- I asked if I could be present during the test drive but was refused by the dealer.
- I asked what the result of the test drive was, but apparently the independent engineer refused to tell the dealer and said they must wait for the report.
- The dealer spoke to the independent on Friday (16th), but as far as I know they were just told that the results had been posted.
- I assuming once the dealer receives the report they will pass it on to me, but as you say, there is a chance it might be less than comprehensive.

I'm not sure why it's so secretive, but my understanding is that even the dealer hasn't had a verbal comment on the outcome as of yet.


Oh and just for full clarity, I noticed a small spot of rust has developed on the roof and there is an ominous click sound when pressing / releasing the clutch, which could be anything from needing a bit of grease, to a faulty clutch master cylinder (which is as scary as it sounds).

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

If rejecting in the first thirty days it is for you to show the fault existed, and so the report should have been commissioned by yourself.
I personally would not have used someone from the RETAIL MOTOR INDUSTRY FEDERATION.
They represent car dealers , so hardly count as neutral. http://www.rmif.co.uk/about-the-rmi/about/
You might yet have to pay for a truly independent inspection and report, but wait and see.

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

Well I offered repeatedly to demonstrate the gearbox fault, but they disregarded this. It doesn't take a qualified engineer to know that there is a problem, anyone who has any manual driving experience should pick up on it.

So far it doesn't seem they have a particularly good grasp of the CRA2015 as they do not appear to be adhering to it and have contradicted it at times, so trying to follow the correct procedures is proving difficult.

Depending on the outcome of the report and their proposed solution I may just expedite it to an ADR with a desire to reject.

Thanks for the help, I'll report back tomorrow with a status update.

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

Didn't receive any contact from the dealer, so I sent them an email asking for an update on the current issues and informing them of the crash bar.

Awaiting a response. masdopey:

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

They want me to take the car in so they can assess the crash bar damage.

Apparently I should have received a copy of the gearbox report (but I haven't).

They say the report indicates no fault was found (which is ridiculous in my opinion).

So I've agreed to let them inspect the damage whenever they are free and informed them I will be taking the gearbox matter up with an ADR. The problem I was having that was diagnosed as a clutch issue also seems to have returned, so I have let them know about that too.

[des8]

Re: Used Car Fault

Thanks for the update.
It will be interesting to see what the RMI engineer's report actually says.
Is anyone sending you a copy?
You might yet need to commission your own INDEPENDENT report.

[Strudul]

Re: Used Car Fault

I should be receiving a report from the RMI, though it appears to have been lost in the post.

The dealer has offered to show me their copy of the report when I take my car in for the crash bar damage to be inspected. I spoke to the service manager today and he said the report mentioned something along the lines of "the gearbox was noisy / clunky, but it was deemed typical of this gearbox / car and not a problem". I'm not sure what cars this RMI engineer has been driving where loud grinding noises are acceptable... I may record a video demonstrating the problem so I can provide it as evidence that there definitely is an issue.

Unfortunately most of the staff at the dealer (including the manager) are on holiday now until early January, so it looks like nothing will be getting done any time soon.