Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

[DD99]

As per title, I purchased a KC reg puppy for £X. Unregistered dogs can be bought for half of that but for personal reasons I was prepared to pay full cost. I received the KC paperwork when I collected/paid the balance for the puppy. When I attempted to transfer the registration from the breeder (they had signed the paperwork ready for transfer) to myself, the KC refused the transfer saying they weren't satisfied with the correctness of the breeding. Subsequently they voided the registration for the same reason ie the puppy was impossible from the sire/dam named.

I have household insurance with legal cover so submitted a claim to their legal offshoot, honestly expecting it to be open and shut (for funding a small claims court action). They've rejected it saying :
- It's not a breach of contract. Though I don't really get this - I bought a KC reg puppy and I haven't got a KC reg puppy.
- It's not misrepresentation as the puppy was KC reg (to the breeder) at the point of sale
- Any award would be minimal as an unreg dog may be worth not that much less than a reg dog

Any thoughts ? My inclination is to DIY a small claims anyway and if I lose I lose. But I can't understand why there's no breach of contract when I paid a premium for a KC reg puppy and that isn't what I got. Plus my feeling is the breeder is a scammer and I'd like to explain my reasons in court.

[ploddertom]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Have you actually asked the "breeder" what has happened? If you have the pedigree have you thought about approaching a breed club for further help and/or advice over whether what is on it is correct? Knew someone once who claimed to use her own stud dog for over 20 years. Rather than just jump in you should start by gathering details.. Did you see either of the parents prior to purchase?

[Kati]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

I agree with [MENTION=26498]ploddertom[/MENTION] ... have you contacted the breeder/seller to see what has gone wrong??

I understand that the KC registration can be 'voided' if there are too many litters registered to the same dam over a short length of time (could this be the reason :noidea??

I'd (personally) be interested in seeing copies of the original certificate and any other letters/correspondence that you received to see if I can figure out KC's reasoning behind the void??

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Yes, I've been in communication with the breeder who was nice as pie until the subject of a partial refund was raised, at which point she became abusive and aggressive. Basically she'd lied about the breeding to get the registration to get the premium price. But it got flagged at the KC because it was a genetic impossibility - the claimed sire/dam. I wasn't sure the KC were right so checked with the breed club who further checked with the animal trust. They all agree that genetically stated mum plus stated dad could not produce the colour of pup sold.

For a long time I thought it was a genuine 'accident' but thought the breeder would come good with a partial refund. It was her reaction when 'money' was mentioned that changed my mind. I think she's a puppy farmer - my mistake.

Any idea on the contract breach/SCC ? I spoke to the legal bloke and he explained why it wasn't a contract breach, but I still didn't get it.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

I agree with @ploddertom ... have you contacted the breeder/seller to see what has gone wrong??

I understand that the KC registration can be 'voided' if there are too many litters registered to the same dam over a short length of time (could this be the reason :noidea??

I'd (personally) be interested in seeing copies of the original certificate and any other letters/correspondence that you received to see if I can figure out KC's reasoning behind the void??

The reason is a liver mum and a liver dad can not produce a black pup. Genetically impossible. Breed Society and Animal Trust say the same. Breeder says they are all talking rubbish and won't communicate further.

I have the original KC reg documents supplied by breeder, signed. Plus all e-mails from the KC explaining the issue - genetically impossible. A solution proposed by the KC which would verify the breeders dam/sire statement was DNA testing. She didn't DNA test. So after 5 months of nothing changing, the KC voided.

[Kati]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

But it got flagged at the KC because it was a genetic impossibility - the claimed sire/dam. I wasn't sure the KC were right so checked with the breed club who further checked with the animal trust. They all agree that genetically stated mum plus stated dad could not produce the colour of pup sold.

Have you checked their 'findings' yourself?? http://www.doggenetics.co.uk ??

[des8]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

I suspect this is a case where the breeder has registered the litter with the KC, and named the sire as XYZ.
When the litter is registered the KC send out the requisite forms to the breeder, and sometimes inform the registered owner of the alleged sire.
That owner may then have reported to KC that their dog could not possibly be the sire.
The KC then refuse to transfer ownership of the registration (which will prevent he dog being shown or any of its off spring being registered)

Your claim has to be against the breeder of the animal as its parentage is falsely described.
I believe you could rescind the contract and recoup all you have paid. using either Misrepresentation Act or Consumer Rights Act.
You will need to obtain chapter and verse about the KC's reasons, but you may find they will start bleating about Data Protecton Act so Ploddertom's advice re breed clubs is a good idea as they have a fund of knowledge not necessarily available to KC


Now8.50 got side tracked whilst writing above and see things have moved on.
However you did not get what you paid for.
Item was fraudulently misrepresented therefore contract rescindable

[Kati]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

IF the sire or dam had a black gene in their past ... a black pup may be bred as a result of two 'Liver' coloured dogs - http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=69959

[ploddertom]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

If the KC Reg has been rescinded then this has to bring the provided Pedigree into question. Sounds as if "a litter of pups" have been falsified and the usual reason for this could well be an imported family from say Southern Ireland where the breeding at best can be dubious. It also begs the question of how many other pups were sold in this manner and what the new owners have decided to do. It should be possible to check how many litters this supposed "breeder" has tried to register, have you checked where they were advertised to see if this was a common occurrence or just a one off. If an accredited breeder through the KC then it may be possible to check.

The area where the breeder lives - are they a member of their local club, if not is this person known to them. Sometimes this sort of thing can also rear its ugly head with the breed rescues where you get to know of puppy farmers quite quickly.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

I suspect this is a case where the breeder has registered the litter with the KC, and named the sire as XYZ.
When the litter is registered the KC send out the requisite forms to the breeder, and sometimes inform the registered owner of the alleged sire.
That owner may then have reported to KC that their dog could not possibly be the sire.
The KC then refuse to transfer ownership of the registration (which will prevent he dog being shown or any of its off spring being registered)

Breeder owned both the sire and dam. So nobody external refuted the breeding. It is purely a matter of 'genetically this is impossible'. The KC suggested the breeder 'prove' the parentage by DNA testing. There was a window where the breeder could have done this, I think about 6 weeks, but didn't. After those 6 weeks the breeder claimed the dam had died. DNA at that point impossible.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Your claim has to be against the breeder of the animal as its parentage is falsely described.
I believe you could rescind the contract and recoup all you have paid. using either Misrepresentation Act or Consumer Rights Act.
You will need to obtain chapter and verse about the KC's reasons, but you may find they will start bleating about Data Protecton Act so Ploddertom's advice re breed clubs is a good idea as they have a fund of knowledge not necessarily available to KC


Now8.50 got side tracked whilst writing above and see things have moved on.
However you did not get what you paid for.
Item was fraudulently misrepresented therefore contract rescindable

I mentioned I was going to use the household legal add-on, but they have refused to fund the action. Their reasoning seemed bizarre to me but they stressed that legally I had no action. That's why I posted to check because I couldn't believe I had no recourse.
- Misrepresentation. They said there was no misrepresentation because factually, the pup was KC reg at the point of sale (KC reg in breeders name)
- I thought it was contract but they said there was no contract breach ?? The bits they said I remember a) the ad and all correspondence didn't say pedigree, it said KC reg. And there are 3 types of KC reg, that seemed to matter to them. I looked it up, there are other types of reg but mine was the normal 5 generation pedigree type this. Their reasoning didn't make sense to me but was escalated from normal to senior to partner.

Edit : maybe I misunderstood - I don't want to rescind the contract and return the animal. She's part of the family which I'm sure the breeder knows and relies on. What I wanted was a part refund to reflect I didn't get what I paid for.

I'm not sure about chapter and verse from the KC. They have been consistent throughout, saying that the mating could not genetically produce the pup. You mention breed club, I've spoken to them at length. They say the same., absolutely 100% confirm it's impossible.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

If the KC Reg has been rescinded then this has to bring the provided Pedigree into question. Sounds as if "a litter of pups" have been falsified and the usual reason for this could well be an imported family from say Southern Ireland where the breeding at best can be dubious. It also begs the question of how many other pups were sold in this manner and what the new owners have decided to do. It should be possible to check how many litters this supposed "breeder" has tried to register, have you checked where they were advertised to see if this was a common occurrence or just a one off. If an accredited breeder through the KC then it may be possible to check.

The area where the breeder lives - are they a member of their local club, if not is this person known to them. Sometimes this sort of thing can also rear its ugly head with the breed rescues where you get to know of puppy farmers quite quickly.

In the litter my girl was in, there are another two black/voided puppies. One owner is letting it go. The other was ''relentlessly'' hassling the seller. No idea if he/she has gone down the legal route.

From talking to a lot of people, the breeder doesn't have a sparkling reputation.

[des8]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Misrepresentation: parents (or at least one parent) could not be as stated on pedigree supplied at the time of sale.

It is not unusual for unscrupulous puppy breeders to register their youngsters with KC using false parentage.
If KC become aware of the falsification, it is only after the papers have been issued to the breeder.
The breeder gets a better price for his dogs than if they were unregistered.
Most people buying a puppy as a pet don't bother to change the registration ownership details, as they don't intend to show it or breed from it.
Breeders don't expect the few who find out, to go to court as the puppy is part of the family.
And even if one or two do go to court, overall they are ahead.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Kati

I looked at champdogs thing a while back. Tbh the genetics are beyond me, but are almost irrelevant to my situation. The KC say so, the breed society say so and the animal trust say so. Because all 'professionals' are saying the same, I have to accept it. I didn't get what I contracted to get, a KC reg dog. It's not up to me to prove the powers that be wrong. It is up to the breeder to sort that out and force the KC reg through by proving them wrong. They could have proved this with the DNA testing but didn't.

[DD99]

Re: Kennel Club reg puppy purchased - but Kennel Club reg later voided

Misrepresentation: parents (or at least one parent) could not be as stated on pedigree supplied at the time of sale.

It is not unusual for unscrupulous puppy breeders to register their youngsters with KC using false parentage.
If KC become aware of the falsification, it is only after the papers have been issued to the breeder.
The breeder gets a better price for his dogs than if they were unregistered.
Most people buying a puppy as a pet don't bother to change the registration ownership details, as they don't intend to show it or breed from it.
Breeders don't expect the few who find out, to go to court as the puppy is part of the family.
And even if one or two do go to court, overall they are ahead.

Ok, this is exactly what I think happened and where I am at.

So legally, if I start a small claims action, is my basis misrepresentation ? That the breeder :
- made false statements (parentage) to achieve a KC reg animal
- parentage statement was rejected by the KC as impossible
- DNA to prove KC wrong/parentage correct not undertaken by seller
- KC voided reg

I seek damages ?? (Is that the correct term?). I don't want to return the pup, just receive a monetary return to reflect the non KC reg status.

At that point we presumerably argue about what an unreg dog is valued at. And I can throw into the mix that I'm not even sure she is an unreg X. I've seen and saved at least one ad where a cross was advertised for sale. Because I don't know the parentage, I don't know exactly what she is.

Does that sound like the right plan of action ?

Btw, thanks everyone