Please help,lifetime warranty problem

[Anvar.p]

Dear all,

I'll start from beginning and will do my best to keep it short.


On morning ride of 11/03/14 I took my best bike out(as it finally stopped raining), it's eddy Merckx carbon bike, bike came with lifetime warranty. 45 minutes in to my session to my huge disappointment I was to suddenly stop because I couldn't pedal due to some obstacle in crank arms way. It was a bolt which had come off the chainring which holds it on to crank arm(by the way it's campagnolo centaur group set) please see attached pic of damage. The bolt stuck between (bottom part) chain stay and crank arm and damaged the frame.


I purchased the bike on 27/09/13 and rode it maybe 10-15 times covering 300 miles tops hoping to do more in spring and summer, in meantime I was using my winter bike for training.


The bolt coming loose, falling out and the subsequent damage that it has
caused was absolutely outwith my control and as such I believe I should be
able to have the damage repaired under the warranty .


So I contacted the online store I have purchased my beloved "tricycle"(winstanleybikes.com on 17/03/14) and asked to make a claim on my behalf as the manufacturer insisted WB.COM to deal with it on my behalf. I gave all the details, provided them with as many pictures as required by EMC(eddy Merckx cycles) as well as the original purchase invoice and bike passport and finally written instructions I received from manufacturer.


I was calling and chasing the case up on daily basis. On 26/03 I've learnt that even WB.com after all my instructions haven't followed them and emailed the claim to the wrong email address. I asked them to fix it and escalate it to right place.


I found Winstaleysbikes.co.uk being very inadequate, unhelpful and unprofessional. Obviously this experience thought me of using lbs instead of paying 200 less.


Today, after chasing both parties I've learnt that manufacturer declined my claim. I'm absolutely disappointed and still believe that the damage caused out with my control should be covered by Lifitime warranty.


Could you please advise what can I do further to have this problem solved please

[Amethyst]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Has the manufacturer given reason for turning down your claim?

Apparently the manufacturers give a limited lifetime warranty with their bikes - the manufacturer may be liable if the product suffers technical failure, but not if the purchaser damages the product through his own actions. Just wondering if they were arguing maintenance issues?

Did you pay for the bike on credit card ?

[Amethyst]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

From their site (just for reference) ( you'd expect a bike under Sales of Goods Act to last longer than 8 months regardless)

Our Limited Lifetime Warranty means that you have a lifetime warranty on your bike frame as of the 2010 collection onwards, provided certain conditions are met - and one of them is that you register your bike here.

Once registered, you will receive your own personal Bike Passport via post at your address, and which you should present to your authorized Merckx dealer when service your bike.

Their 'lifetime warranty seems to just cover their 'carbon frame'/

Limited lifetime warranty

1. What is LLW?

The Limited Lifetime Warranty is an additional warranty on top of the statutory warranty which applies to the seller of a product in case of defects in material and workmanship. The Limited Lifetime Warranty is provided by Eddy Merckx Cycles (hereinafter “EMC”) and can therefore only be invoked by consumers against EMC.
2. Who can enjoy the LLW?

a. The Limited Lifetime Warranty only applies to EMC frames starting from the 2010 collection onwards. The Limited Lifetime Warranty does not apply to other parts of the purchased bicycle, even if these components are produced by EMC.

b. The Limited Lifetime Warranty is only valid to the first owner of the frame. Bicycles or frames bought second-hand, used, from individuals or from any source other than an authorized EMC dealer are not eligible for the Limited Lifetime Warranty.
c. The Limited Lifetime Warranty only applies to frames or the frames of bicycles purchased from an officially authorized EMC dealer or purchased directly from EMC or one of its affiliated companies.
3. What to do to have your frame secured?

a. The frame must be registered within one month from the original date of purchase at www.eddymerckx.com. After registration the owner will receive an EMC Bike Passport. The Limited Lifetime Warranty is applicable from the date of registration onwards. The term of protection of the Limited Lifetime Warranty is the lifetime of the product and is applicable in the country of purchase of the bike.
b. The bicycle must be serviced a minimum of one time per calendar year at an official EMC dealer or at a dealer approved by EMC or one of its affiliated companies for the Limited Lifetime Warranty to remain in effect.
c. After each annual servicing at an official EMC dealer or at a dealer approved by EMC or one of its affiliated companies, this dealer must validate the buyer’s Bike Passport in the space provided on the Bike Passport. In the absence of proof of such maintenance and stamps, the Limited Lifetime Warranty is void.
4. What to do to have your frame replaced or repaired?

a. The frame owner must submit the original invoice.
b. Any defect or damage to the frame must be reported in writing within 5 business days after discovery.
c. The consumer must provide a annually stamped Bike Passport.
5. Restrictions

a. The Limited Lifetime Warranty does not apply in cases of improper use of the bicycle, if the bicycle has been used for purposes for which it is not designed, if damage to the frame is the result of falling, misuse or the incorrect assembly of other parts on the bike, or when damage to the frame is caused by a defect of any other parts of the bike.
b. EMC reserves the right to have the damage or defect to the frame examined before proceeding to reparation or replacement. If the conditions of the Limited Lifetime Warranty are met, EMC has the option, at its sole discretion, to replace or repair the frame as it deems necessary.
c. Repair or replacement of the frame, as EMC sees fit, constitutes the only warranty obligation of EMC. The Limited Lifetime Warranty does not cover any damages of any kind arising from the use of the frame, including, without limitation, direct, indirect, incidental, punitive or consequential damages. EMC does not accept liability beyond the remedies set forth herein, including, without limitation, the product not being available for use, injury to others, damage to other property, loss of income and profits, bodily injury or material damage.

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Hello Amethyst,
thank,you very much for taking time to respond.

unfortunately, the the dealer didn't provide me with the original manufacturer's reply, I felt that bit was a bit fishy. I call them up and asked them to forward it to me to which a person I spoke to agreed but he didn't then at 4.30 pm a rung them again to ask them for the email again(this time a different person) and she ensured me she'll forward it at once. But still no email. I'm determined to get that email and will ring them the first thing in the morning.
I paid for the bike by credit card, as even after breaking my piggy bank I haven't had enough funds(these bikes aren't cheap) so yes I bought it using credit card.
also, just to clarify, I do strongly believe that considering the use the bike had, around 300 miles, it shouldn't be needing any servicing until at least august 14. I haven't crushed the bike or haven't used it to carry cargo so the damage isn't done because of misuse or neglect.

Thank you very much for providing additional information on warranty.

you are a star.

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

The main damage is on carbon frame itself, that's exactly what I'm trying to have replaced.

thanks amethyst,

a.p

[enquirer]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

The warranty extends to the frame alone. This was not defective. The frame was damaged by a bolt that had come loose from elsewhere.

The point about it only being ridden 10-15 times and no servicing being required at 300 miles is valid. This suggests that the bolt coming out was due to an error during assembly.

That said, how frequently would it be reasonable to expect the rider themselves to give the bike a quick check over (brakes, cables, tyres, loose bolts, etcetera), before taking to the road? If it was ridden daily, and only on tarmac, what would the timescale be?

If you have a claim, it will be against the retailer.

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

The warranty extends to the frame alone. This was not defective. The frame was damaged by a bolt that had come loose from elsewhere.

The point about it only being ridden 10-15 times and no servicing being required at 300 miles is valid. This suggests that the bolt coming out was due to an error during assembly.

That said, how frequently would it be reasonable to expect the rider themselves to give the bike a quick check over (brakes, cables, tyres, loose bolts, etcetera), before taking to the road? If it was ridden daily, and only on tarmac, what would the timescale be?

If you have a claim, it will be against the retailer.

Very useful thanks enquirer,

as it is a road bike I do ride it only on Tarmac and as I mentioned previously this is my best bike, so it'd be ridden exceptionally on a good weather day with no rain. When it comes to safety checks in my four years of road cycling experience I do it often, I.e. Check/tighten the screws and bolts on brakes, seatpost, handlebars but I must admit I very seldomly check the chainring as from my experience it's normally pain in the neck to unscrew it rather then tighten it. When it comes to cables, normally it's quite obvious that they need replacing or shortening due to stretching. In my case, the Sunday before the ride were the damage happen I did exactly that, checked every screw and bolt for tightness, again unfortunately as I didn't have the right spanner for chainring I left it.
You see all the parts fitted to the carbon frame have so called tightening instruction which is measured in nM. So one of the highest number of tightening torque is on parts not directly fitted to carbon, in my case it is on chainring which is 40-45nm. Also, mechanics use special torque gel for tightening screws and bolts for them to grip to parts better and tighten it less which is pretty much a guarantee at least for me that there's no need keep a constant eye on bolts. As this gel makes it harder then to unscrew.
Also, any good Bike shop normally offers "first service" in one to three weeks time after purchase and normally let's customer know to return with new bike to have it looked at for no charge.

I feel it's the party who tightened the bolt is the one I need to be talking, in my case it's very unclear whether it was the manufacturer or seller whoa the time of sale did so called pre sale check on bike the list of checks by mechaninic was given to me at time of purchase with sales invoice.

Its just I feel like a mug now having a bike which is well over one grand and being damaged by a bolt, and having to buy a new frame which is minimum of 600-700 pounds.

many thanks,
A.p.

[Silent assassin]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

There are a number of factors to consider in this case. When a manufacturer gives you a so-called "lifetime guarantee" it is obviously subject to certain conditions which have been mentioned previously. Also, this is a condition that is in addition to your usual statutory rights as found, for example, under the Sale of Goods Act 1996.

Assuming that the bike was not misused and was normal wear and tear (which it sounds like) who was the one offering the "Lifetime warranty".

Assume that the manufacturer claim that all their bikes have it but you buy it from another company then you would not be covered. It is the shop that you buy your product from with whom you are making the contract NOT the manufacturer of the product.

When you bought the bike what were the terms and conditions? There may be a way out of your situation by means of what is known as a "collateral contract". This is basically where A is induced into a contract with B by representations made by C. Even though no contract exists between A and C if A suffers loss he can subsequently sue C for damages.

So, could it be said that by the representations "Lifetime Warranty" made by the bike manufacturer they induced you to buy it from the shop?

If the contract you have made says "Lifetime guarantee" then that is exactly what it is but the person who should put the matter right are the person you made the contract with NOT the manufacturer. Many shops do this to evade liability.

If the shop fail to put the matter right you can sue for breach of contract. This would not be the full cost of the bike but the cost of getting it repaired somewhere plus any damages you may have incurred along the way.

Contact me if I can assist you further!

Silent Assassin

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

There are a number of factors to consider in this case. When a manufacturer gives you a so-called "lifetime guarantee" it is obviously subject to certain conditions which have been mentioned previously. Also, this is a condition that is in addition to your usual statutory rights as found, for example, under the Sale of Goods Act 1996.

Assuming that the bike was not misused and was normal wear and tear (which it sounds like) who was the one offering the "Lifetime warranty".

Assume that the manufacturer claim that all their bikes have it but you buy it from another company then you would not be covered. It is the shop that you buy your product from with whom you are making the contract NOT the manufacturer of the product.

When you bought the bike what were the terms and conditions? There may be a way out of your situation by means of what is known as a "collateral contract". This is basically where A is induced into a contract with B by representations made by C. Even though no contract exists between A and C if A suffers loss he can subsequently sue C for damages.

So, could it be said that by the representations "Lifetime Warranty" made by the bike manufacturer they induced you to buy it from the shop?

If the contract you have made says "Lifetime guarantee" then that is exactly what it is but the person who should put the matter right are the person you made the contract with NOT the manufacturer. Many shops do this to evade liability.

If the shop fail to put the matter right you can sue for breach of contract. This would not be the full cost of the bike but the cost of getting it repaired somewhere plus any damages you may have incurred along the way.

Contact me if I can assist you further!

Silent Assassin

Dear Silent assassin,

Thank you for your time to reply.

I am now aware of the fact that the contract I'm in is with the bike shop. I raised the claim with the bike shop and they subsequently passed it on to manufacturer. The reply from manufacturer was that due to damage happening from a loose bolt and not directly frame failure which is covered by lifetime warranty they are not going to replace the frame. I let the bike shop know that I'm not satisfied with this respond and that I haven't had much use of bike in general (covering 300 miles in les than 6 month is not much at all) and because of that I'm intending to take the case further to small claims court unless they'll replace the frame. As fixing the damage on carbon fibre is not recommended by manufacturer I have only one option it is replacement of the frame.

The shop's respond to this was that :
"It is perfectly normal for a bolt to come loose after this length of time and as part of general bike maintenance would need to checked regularly by the customer to ensure that all bolts are tightened.

From looking at the photos you have sent we are confident that the issue is not due to a manufacturing defect with the bike but a lack of general bike maintenance. For this reason the frame would not be covered under warranty."

I'm really frustrated now and have no idea what to do. Seems like the shop can sell you a bike for over 1000 pounds and do nothing about it when it falls apart after what in y opinion is very short use .

Thanks

[Silent assassin]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Hello Anvar!

When you consider the price of the product (premium quality bike) I have to disagree with the shop's response. I believe it is objectively true that under S14 of the Sale of Goods Act (taking all into consideration) you should not have trouble with a loose bolt. Obviously, if the bike was 20 years old it would be a different matter!

Let me get this right: they are saying the loose bolt is due to lack of maintenance on your behalf? The reason why I believe it may be a dangerous precedent is that if a product does go wrong could the supplier evade liability by informing consumers "It's lack of maintenance".

Even if the frame was damaged by the loose bolt I would still state there is a causative link. For example, let's say I get a car and due to faulty wiring it sets on fire turning it into worthless junk. Could a supplier argue that the bodywork is guaranteed for life but because of the wiring (which is not covered) then there is nothing I can do?

I believe you have a strong case to sue for breach of contract under S14 of the Sale of Goods Act.

Silent Assassin

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Hello Anvar!

When you consider the price of the product (premium quality bike) I have to disagree with the shop's response. I believe it is objectively true that under S14 of the Sale of Goods Act (taking all into consideration) you should not have trouble with a loose bolt. Obviously, if the bike was 20 years old it would be a different matter!

Let me get this right: they are saying the loose bolt is due to lack of maintenance on your behalf? The reason why I believe it may be a dangerous precedent is that if a product does go wrong could the supplier evade liability by informing consumers "It's lack of maintenance".

Even if the frame was damaged by the loose bolt I would still state there is a causative link. For example, let's say I get a car and due to faulty wiring it sets on fire turning it into worthless junk. Could a supplier argue that the bodywork is guaranteed for life but because of the wiring (which is not covered) then there is nothing I can do?

I believe you have a strong case to sue for breach of contract under S14 of the Sale of Goods Act.

Silent Assassin

Dear Silent Assassin,

if you in line of legal business and know about court procedures, could you please advise what is my nex stage in all of this please.

At the moment i am looking for an independent cycle mechanic who'd write a report (independent expert evidence) to add to the paperwork for the small claims court. I am speaking with the manufacturer to find out more about the part's assembly, whether at the point of assembly thread lock material is used(sort of assembly compound which serves as a glue to prevent screws unscrewing and falling). And once I have all my evidence I am going to file my case.

would you recommend anything else please?

anvar

[Silent assassin]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Hello Anvar

This is a long one as I hate to give people the basics. If you know all the facts you are more likely to get the result you want.

The lifetime warranty on the frame. The terms and conditions by them state this:

a. The Limited Lifetime Warranty does not apply in cases of improper use of the bicycle, if the bicycle has been used for purposes for which it is not designed, if damage to the frame is the result of falling, misuse or the incorrect assembly of other parts on the bike, or when damage to the frame is caused by a defect of any other parts of the bike.

I have made bold the parts which interest us. Now before you think that this clause stands it is important to note that before terms in contracts are accepted by the courts they must be "reasonable". Not all clauses stand if they are unequitable. Is this clause reasonable?

I think it may be but my argument is that you may be able to argue a causative link between the faulty bolt and subsequent damage. They are linked.

EXAMPLE:

Assume that I buy myself a washing machine and due to faulty manufacturing it leaks and causes £1,000 worth of damage to my new kitchen can I claim? Yes, because there is a causative link between the faulty manufacturing and my subsequent loss.

Even if the Court did uphold the fact that the clause to do with the lifetime warranty on the frame was reasonable there may still be hope. You may be able to argue that due to the faulty manufacturing by the company and there breach of S14 the goods have caused you loss. What would the loss be? The cost of replacing the frame or repairing the frame. Do you see my point?

EXAMPLE:

Assume that I get a microwave and it has a 1 year guarantee. It blows up in my face and injures me but the shop tell me the 1 year guarantee has expired. That does not mean to say they are not liable in tort under what is known as a "duty of care" to the end user.

The point I am making is that the fact the frame has an independent lifetime warranty distinct from the rest of the bike will not prevent you arguing that there is a causative link between a faulty bolt and subsequent loss to you.

Just a thought: Is the frame fit for purpose and quality under S14? How much strain, stress should it take?

Yes, you will undoubtedly require an expert report to support your findings.

When you contact the manufacturer I would ask:

• The durability of the frames
• The bolt and parts (is this a common occurence?)

Assume the manufacturer tells you that the problem you have encountered hardly ever happens then this surely shows that the part has been manufactured incorrectly? This would obviously preclude misuse etc. which is not the case on the evidence you have given me.

Hope this helps!

[Rhothgar]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

The shop's respond to this was that :
"It is perfectly normal for a bolt to come loose after this length of time and as part of general bike maintenance would need to checked regularly by the customer to ensure that all bolts are tightened.

That is totally incorrect. I used to be a racing cyclist back in my younger days and had the Campagnolo Super Record groupset on all my race bikes. It was the pinnacle of engineering.

There is no way in a complete season of racing that I would have any issue such as this and I did my own spannering. I never checked bolts such as chainrings bolts throughout a whole season and I would race anywhere between 3000 - 5000 miles a year. The shop that sold you the bike would, in my opinion, be responsible for the pre-delivery inspection and setting it up for road use. I would doubt that the bike from be shipped from Mercx all ready to go. However, what normally happens is that the pedals are on the wrong way and the handlebars are at 90 degrees. I would doubt a shop would check chainring bolts. I couldn't find any photo attached so I am guessing you are talking about chainring bolts.

However, dare I say, this Centaur groupset will be nowhere near the same quality but it honestly shouldn't make a difference. It's attractive because people recognise the Campagnolo brand and automatically think it is the best quality.

I have seen some of these carbon frames and tapped on them. They are paper thin I'm afraid but it is sold as being so strong. However, its structural properties relate to how it has been designed to operate. I have heard that the simple act of a chain coming off can cut through a chainstay and render a frame useless.

It's a shame you cannot get a refund and buy a retro 80's bike with 753 tubes if you want lightness but with a Campag Super Record groupset, you would easily pay more than what you paid for your modern innovation!

It may be worth getting an independent lab or insurance assessor to review the damage and provide you with a written report of what they believe has caused the damage. This would also give you something to rely on once the bike is out of your possession.

[Anvar.p]

Re: Please help,lifetime warranty problem

Hello All,

good news, ewes, I have just received an email from part manufacturer which caused the damage. As per the email it opposes the argument of the bike shop. The email from part manufacturer about tightening the bolts:

"Hello Anvar

Thanks for the mail, forwaded to us by our colleagues in Italy as thaer main UK Service Centre for Campagnolo.


The chainrings do not require, in the normal way, periodic tightening. Once secured at the factory or by a ProShop / Service Centre, we don't normally expect that a bolt or bolts should work loose in normal use.


The pin that we place in the "hidden" bolt is there to discourage users from removing it it ... we don't encourage this as we custom-shim the chainrings on the carbon spiders to ensure that they sit as closely perfectly in true as the tolerance requires ... and removal of the chainrings without paying attention to the position to the thickness and type of any spacing shims will result in a problem with locating the ring correctly for the front derailleur to perform the way that it should.


We do use Loctite 243 on the chainring bolts to ensure that the bolts do not move in normal use.


Kind regards"

i think in know I have even stronger case against the shop.

any further advise you could give me?