Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

**Galahad** · 18th June 2012, 23:18:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Anyone?

**labman** · 18th June 2012, 23:47:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Would the paper count as a proper contract, or was it more a gentleman's agreement?

Did it specify individual liability? Sadly I suspect it would be a joint and several liability, so if one doesn't pay, the other has to.

Without knowing the details of the agreement, it is very hard to comment properly.

There's also the question of what the loan was used for. If it was used to buy equipment which you now own outright as your partner has left, then obviously there's more onus on you to repay.

What happened when the partner left? Was the status of the company amended accordingly, or does he still technically own half of it?

**Galahad** · 19th June 2012, 00:02:AM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by labman View Post

Would the paper count as a proper contract, or was it more a gentleman's agreement?

Did it specify individual liability? Sadly I suspect it would be a joint and several liability, so if one doesn't pay, the other has to.

Without knowing the details of the agreement, it is very hard to comment properly.

There's also the question of what the loan was used for. If it was used to buy equipment which you now own outright as your partner has left, then obviously there's more onus on you to repay.

What happened when the partner left? Was the status of the company amended accordingly, or does he still technically own half of it?

Wasn't so much a gentlemens agreement, we signed a contract basically saying how much we owed, when the first payment date was, how much per week, and that we both signed it.

He did give up entitlement to a vehicle, but when I take into account some bills that i've been left with plus this loan, him giving up half his entitlement to the truck doesn't remotely cover half of the total owed.

Theres nothing to state he owns half of the company, it was a friendly arrangement that went sour, but the contract for the loan i'm pretty sure is cast iron, he's signed to say he's liable as much as me.

Only thing I need to know is are there any legal things I can do short of going a protracted court route, because as of tomorrow, i'll have paid off exactly half of the remaining loan, and i'm not really that keen to keep on paying it when he owes it.

**labman** · 19th June 2012, 00:10:AM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

I stand to be corrected, but it sounds to me very much like joint and several liability. This means you'll have to keep paying the loan (or face the conseuences of stopping paying it), and then have the option of pursuing your ex business partner for his contribution.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

**Galahad** · 20th June 2012, 11:23:AM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

ok, thats what I suspected.

But, legally am I able without going through the courts, to seize a vehicle as a civil debt?

Now I know if I do it, i'll probably get arrested for TWOC, but, having proof that he owes money and has done nothing to solve it, I can prove its a civil matter, or would the Police not be interested?

I've had to do it before over a laptop, they owed money, I still had their laptop, so I gave them X amount of weeks to settle the debt and then they could have it back, if they didn't then it would be sold to recoup the debt.

End result was the laptop got sold, my missus got arrested for it even though it was me that sold it, but eventually after a couple of hours, they accepted that it was a civil matter and they de-arrested her and let her go.

**CleverClogs** · 20th June 2012, 13:52:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by Galahad View Post

But, legally am I able without going through the courts, to seize a vehicle as a civil debt?

No. Nor would you be permitted, whether or not you used the courts, to offer to rearrange his face, tell him he would soon be sleeping with the fishes or sell his first-born child on the black market, either for transplant organs or as a sex slave. Isn't that unfair?

Now I know if I do it, i'll probably get arrested for TWOC, but, having proof that he owes money and has done nothing to solve it, I can prove its a civil matter, or would the Police not be interested?

I would hope they would be extremely interested, as you would thereby have clearly indicated that you had not the least trace of a viable defence.

I've had to do it before over a laptop, they owed money, I still had their laptop, so I gave them X amount of weeks to settle the debt and then they could have it back, if they didn't then it would be sold to recoup the debt.

End result was the laptop got sold, my missus got arrested for it even though it was me that sold it, but eventually after a couple of hours, they accepted that it was a civil matter and they de-arrested her and let her go.

Disgraceful. They should have arrested and charged the pair of you.

Do you live in a council house?

**Galahad** · 20th June 2012, 16:03:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by CleverClogs View Post

No. Nor would you be permitted, whether or not you used the courts, to offer to rearrange his face, tell him he would soon be sleeping with the fishes or sell his first-born child on the black market, either for transplant organs or as a sex slave. Isn't that unfair?

I would hope they would be extremely interested, as you would thereby have clearly indicated that you had not the least trace of a viable defence.

Disgraceful. They should have arrested and charged the pair of you.

Do you live in a council house?

Easy tiger, no one said anything about filling him in, so i'm not entirely sure where you get off with that particular lecture!

Yes I would have viable defence in taking a vehicle, but as I was asking whether or not I could legitimately do it without going through the courts is WHY I asked, i.e. its a defence, but might not be enough of a defence to rule out it backfiring on me.

As for me being 'disgraceful', i'm a little lost for words frankly, just who do you think you are to judge me?

Why should they have arrested and charged us both? For a start I was the one that sold the laptop to recover money owed to my partner, she had nothing to do with it, so quite how you then get the idea of her being culpable and being charged is frankly beyond me.

Someone didn't pay all their arrears in living at our house, and made no attempt to pay it for over 3 months, so we reasonably said to them when they asked about the laptop, that if they wanted it back, to pay the arrears back, or we would sell the laptop to pay off the arrears, and gave them plenty of time to do so.

So, can you please explain to me how I am 'disgraceful' in what I did?

As for your last comment about a council house, i'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything, in fact pretty much most of your response is downright rude and bizarre, completely and utterly unhelpful and frankly, i'm rather hoping this is some jape on your part, because I have no idea what the hell you're playing at!

Not amused by you at all.

**CleverClogs** · 20th June 2012, 17:20:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by Galahad View Post

Easy tiger, no one said anything about filling him in, so i'm not entirely sure where you get off with that particular lecture!

It seemed wise to inform/remind you about such matters, lest you later asked about that approach.

Yes I would have viable defence in taking a vehicle, but as I was asking whether or not I could legitimately do it without going through the courts is WHY I asked, i.e. its a defence, but might not be enough of a defence to rule out it backfiring on me.

Why might it "backfire" on you?

"Well, you see Your Honour, it's like this: he owed me about £2000 for his half of stuff which I use in the company we both set up but which I now operate as if he never existed and he would not pay the money I demanded. So I stole his car and sold it to get the money I was owed."

The only way such a defence might 'work' would be if you actually wanted to be gaoled.

As for me being 'disgraceful', i'm a little lost for words frankly, just who do you think you are to judge me?

I did not suggest that you were/are disgraceful, as that comment clearly applies to the relative inaction of the plods.

Why should they have arrested and charged us both? For a start I was the one that sold the laptop to recover money owed to my partner, she had nothing to do with it, so quite how you then get the idea of her being culpable and being charged is frankly beyond me.

Whether or not you can understand it, such is the law. See section 8 of the Accomplices and Abettors Act 1861 (link) and R v Betts and Ridley (1930, 22 Cr App R 148) - link.

It hardly matters that your partner did not actively take part in your actions, for it is sufficient for her not to have attempted to dissuade you and, having failed to dissuade you, not having reported your actions to the plods.

Someone didn't pay all their arrears in living at our house, and made no attempt to pay it for over 3 months, so we reasonably said to them when they asked about the laptop, that if they wanted it back, to pay the arrears back, or we would sell the laptop to pay off the arrears, and gave them plenty of time to do so.

It is a pity you did not get an opportunity to explain that to a criminal court.

So, can you please explain to me how I am 'disgraceful' in what I did?

The laptop was not your property to sell. It belonged to your lodger. Whether you retained it when that lodger departed, or the lodger left it behind, the fact remains that it was in your bailment and, by selling it, you seem to have committed an offence contrary to the Theft Act 1968 - link.

You really should have been given the opportunity to explain your appropriation of the laptop to a criminal court.
You might even have been acquitted. :flypig:

As for your last comment about a council house, i'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything,

It was merely a question to satisfy my own curiosity, as your concept of justice seemed not unlike that I have noticed among the more feral residents of certain estates of council houses.

in fact pretty much most of your response is downright rude and bizarre, completely and utterly unhelpful and frankly, i'm rather hoping this is some jape on your part, because I have no idea what the hell you're playing at!

Oh, good.

Not amused by you at all.

Good; you were not supposed to be amused by my comments but informed or educated by them.

Nor did I consider your comments to be even slightly risible except where you seemed to suppose your "defence" might be accepted by a criminal court.

What is especially worrisome is that you appear to have been a police constable, as the training imparted seems to have been more than slightly deficient.

**Galahad** · 20th June 2012, 20:58:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by CleverClogs View Post

It seemed wise to inform/remind you about such matters, lest you later asked about that approach.

Of course if you bothered to read my first post in its entirety, you would have happened upon the following, i've quoted it for you, because even though I gave you simple clues such as words constructed in easy to read sentences with all the appropriate punctuation, it seemed to elude you:

By threat, I don't mean i'm going to threaten him, but are there any civil powers that I have as a member of the public I can use, i.e. "If you don't start paying off the loan that you owe, then i'll be forced to seek recompense by taking your car", or am I utterly hamstrung and have to go through nothing but legal channels?

Why might it "backfire" on you?

"Well, you see Your Honour, it's like this: he owed me about £2000 for his half of stuff which I use in the company we both set up but which I now operate as if he never existed and he would not pay the money I demanded. So I stole his car and sold it to get the money I was owed."

The only way such a defence might 'work' would be if you actually wanted to be gaoled.

Yet again, it appears that you've simply skimmed a couple of words here or there in a rather scattershot pattern, because obviously, if you'd bothered to read what I wrote, what with following the rules of writing in plain English, you would have come across the next piece of information that might have availed itself to you, thus rendering your response not only frivolously incoherent, but pointless:

He did give up entitlement to a vehicle, but when I take into account some bills that i've been left with plus this loan, him giving up half his entitlement to the truck doesn't remotely cover half of the total owed.

So far from your suggestion that i've somehow diddled my business partner, he's left me the value of one vehicle which equates to 1000 Pounds, but left me with a loan at the time of his departure of 4000 Pounds, and various bills and rent of over 1700 Pounds, and various wages to pay, oh, did I forget to mention he was light fingered with the contents of the Safe which is why he had to go? So please, inform me just how you got to the impression that I somehow my 'demands' were somehow unreasonable?

I did not suggest that you were/are disgraceful, as that comment clearly applies to the relative inaction of the plods.

No. Unfortunately for you thats not how it reads at all. Heres what you said, VERBATIM:

Disgraceful. They should have arrested and charged the pair of you.

Quite how you can make an inference that your comment is directed at the conduct of the Police, is quite beyond me, more than anything, your immediate follow up comment of:

Do you live in a council house?

Suggests otherwise!

Whether or not you can understand it, such is the law. See section 8 of the Accomplices and Abettors Act 1861 (link) and R v Betts and Ridley (1930, 22 Cr App R 148) - link.

It hardly matters that your partner did not actively take part in your actions, for it is sufficient for her not to have attempted to dissuade you and, having failed to dissuade you, not having reported your actions to the plods.

Really? For that to apply she would have to be aware she was KNOWINGLY taking part in a criminal act, she of course didn't because I sorted it out, and my previous experience meant she was accepting my judgement on the matter, whether the actual act I did was correct or not.

It is a pity you did not get an opportunity to explain that to a criminal court.

It would NEVER have gotten that far, because it was clearly a civil matter, on the defence of Dishonesty alone the CPS would not have continued:

Sec 2(1) "A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest

(a) if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or

The laptop was not your property to sell. It belonged to your lodger. Whether you retained it when that lodger departed, or the lodger left it behind, the fact remains that it was in your bailment and, by selling it, you seem to have committed an offence contrary to the Theft Act 1968 - link.

See above quote about Dishonesty, you're wrong i'm afraid.

You really should have been given the opportunity to explain your appropriation of the laptop to a criminal court.

Thanks, but obviously clearer heads were of the opinion it was a civil matter. You really should read ALL of the Theft Act in its ENTIRETY, because if you did, you'd know that Mens Rea plays a great part in deciding whether the accused committed the act to permanently deprive the owner of the item(s), or that there was a mitigating reason as to why they BELIEVED what they did was lawful.

The Theft Act gives reason FOR and AGAINST what constitutes the offence of theft, you simply posting a link to the Theft Act without actually acknowledging that is tepid to say the least!

You might even have been acquitted. :flypig:

A shame then for all concerned that it didn't even get that far, its almost as if you're dissapointed? Bless!

It was merely a question to satisfy my own curiosity, as your concept of justice seemed not unlike that I have noticed among the more feral residents of certain estates of council houses.

I see. So, only people that live in Council House Estates are 'feral' are they? So those that own their own houses are incapable of being 'feral'? One can only surmise that was what you implied, as I see no caveat to suggest otherwise.

I'm rather surprised to be brutally honest, i've found Legal Beagles to be a pretty good place, lots of people happy to help, even when someone posts a thread along the lines of "I stole something and I got caught" doesn't attract peoples ire, on the whole people on here don't tend to judge unlike other consumer related sites, but you? Frankly i'm utterly amazed you've not managed to turn people away in their droves with your stereotypical nonsense!!

So people in Council House estates are 'feral', and you say that with a perfectly straight face and think remotely that you are being any help whatsoever, or a good advert for this site????

I think you need to take a damned good look at yourself, and try at least to grasp more than your rather perfunctory grasp of diplomacy.

Good; you were not supposed to be amused by my comments but informed or educated by them.

No I wasn't amused, am still not amused, and i'm more informed about YOU than anything you have to say thus far in this thread. Educated? Not so much, because your scant observance of the ENTIRETY of the Theft Act and the other comments you've made, lead me to believe that your 'education' as it is, is a rather judgemental one.

Thats really NOT what this site is for, its here to help, but if you think that the snippy and snide comments are helpful and meaningful.... eek!

Nor did I consider your comments to be even slightly risible except where you seemed to suppose your "defence" might be accepted by a criminal court.

Well of course, if you didn't skim read my posts, perhaps you might be more aware of my defence, but considering that I started this thread to ask "what if", and Labman elegantly provided me with the answer before you blundered in, i'm really only slightly perplexed that you felt the need to comment when largely the thread was pretty much concluded. I'd asked my questions, i'd gotten my answers, I was better informed, the chastisement.... not so much!

What is especially worrisome is that you appear to have been a police constable, as the training imparted seems to have been more than slightly deficient.

Yes I was indeed a Police Constable for around a year, guilty as charged, but that was in fact quite a long time ago infact, so forgive me if i'm not upto speed on all aspects of PACE, but I'll tell you one thing, I know the ENTIRETY of the Theft Act and ALL its implications, which is why it was considered a Civil matter, and thankfully we didn't get to perform a pantomime at your behest eh? [wink]

I would suggest that your username is entirely inappropriate, but I won't as that would be crass and insulting, and i'll leave that to you, because you're of the opinion its 'helpful' and 'educational'.

My, how I wish I had a teacher like you at school!

Its obvious to me that even though you've been here for over a year, and made over 2000 posts, you've opted to not be helpful at all in this particular thread!

Your goading and frankly insulting attitude is precisely NOT what this forum is about, its what sets it apart from other sites of a similar nature, where no matter what the circumstances, people will not be judged, but will be advised in the best capacity possible, in the most helpful manner possible to hopefully get a result, especially as theres some people out there going through some tough times, and without sites like this, might not see a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel.

If you remotely think your responses in this thread have met all of those conditions, I must inform you that you've not, in any way, shape or form, achieved any of that.

That you would judge me so harshly, not knowing me, or my partner, or even to bother avail yourself of all the facts presented in this thread before commenting, never mind your rather callous stereotype of linking 'feral' and 'council house estate'.

If you remotely think you've insulted me, I have to tell you sir, you have not, you have only managed to insult yourself and others in need of help that might well read your comments and opt not to come here lest they be judged by you and assume that everyone on this site is of the same opinion as you.

This will be my last interaction with you on a permanent basis, i'm afraid that I simply cannot tolerate your vitriol a moment longer, and I don't have to, as I avail myself of the 'ignore' function of this site.

I fear that any kind of protracted discussion with you will not only be fruitless and pointless, it would at a detriment to this site.

I'm here to help people if I can, be helped if its at all possible, but I will not get into a tit for tat war of words with anyone.

Good day to you sir.

**Celestine** · 20th June 2012, 21:43:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Must admit, I agree with Galahad on all his points. I did find CC's response unhelpful and pretty insulting generally.

Sorry you had to go to the trouble of a detailed response Galahad. I hope other posters will be more supportive and helpful. I've had a similar situation with a business partner and sadly I was saddled with all the debts.

Cel x

**Hurricane Puffrose** · 20th June 2012, 22:14:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

this negative vibe is really getting me down

sad puff!!

Personally Galahad I would be very cagey with the whole taking the car bit, I know you said your going to threaten him with it, but we live in an age where people with snooker cues on the way to the pool hall are being tasered (sorry BB

)
The slightest hint of a threat could, to quote JarJar Binks "Landa you in DEEEEEEEEEEEP doo doo"

Can you not give his details to the people chasing his half of the debt? obviously if this is against the DPA dont do it!!

I've never been in this situation, so all I can offer is a hug :hug: and a listening ear, its all I have.

**CleverClogs** · 20th June 2012, 23:24:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by Celestine View Post

Must admit, I agree with Galahad on all his points. I did find CC's response unhelpful and pretty insulting generally.

What?

He was asking if he might use the fact that his former partner may have owed money on a joint and several loan agreement as an excuse for stealing that former partner's motor-car and selling it, thereby permanently depriving its owner of its use.

How is it "unhelpful" to respond that such a course of action might result in him spending time as an involuntary guest of Her Majesty?

Sorry you had to go to the trouble of a detailed response Galahad. I hope other posters will be more supportive and helpful. I've had a similar situation with a business partner and sadly I was saddled with all the debts.

Whilst I do sympathise with his plight, I cannot sympathise with his intended methods.

**CleverClogs** · 20th June 2012, 23:42:PM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by Galahad View Post

During our time together, we got a loan from a friend, which we had religiously been paying off £200 a week to try and clear as soon as possible.

The loan wasn't secured on anything, we both signed a piece of paper basically outlining the details of the loan, how much we would pay back and the amount.

That suggests you were paying interest on the loan.

Unless your friends have a current Consumer Credit Licence, it may be difficult or impossible for them to use the courts to recover the money you believe is still owed by your former business partner.

I'm going to present my ex-partner a letter explaining he needs to sort it out, but I can't afford for him to drag his heels, so before it goes down the route of solicitors and small claims court and all that kind of stuff, is there any perfectly legal 'threat' I can use?

By threat, I don't mean i'm going to threaten him, but are there any civil powers that I have as a member of the public I can use, i.e. "If you don't start paying off the loan that you owe, then i'll be forced to seek recompense by taking your car", or am I utterly hamstrung and have to go through nothing but legal channels?

Why do you seem to have an aversion to legal methods?

**Galahad** · 21st June 2012, 08:45:AM

Re: Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Originally posted by puffrose View Post

this negative vibe is really getting me down

sad puff!!

Personally Galahad I would be very cagey with the whole taking the car bit, I know you said your going to threaten him with it, but we live in an age where people with snooker cues on the way to the pool hall are being tasered (sorry BB

)
The slightest hint of a threat could, to quote JarJar Binks "Landa you in DEEEEEEEEEEEP doo doo"

Can you not give his details to the people chasing his half of the debt? obviously if this is against the DPA dont do it!!

I've never been in this situation, so all I can offer is a hug :hug: and a listening ear, its all I have.

Well the whole idea of any kind of threat is only going to be implied anyway, on the lines of "if you don't sort out a payment plan of some description, then i'll have to look into blah blah." I'm not daft enough to put any kind of 'threat' in a letter, because any half decent solicitor will see through it if he happens to get one to look over it, which might well scupper any plans to get anything back.

He's saddled me with a lot of debt, has pretty much walked away, and there wasn't much left of the business when he went either, which, as I later found out, people stopped doing business with us because of his association with us! Thankfully a few have come back since he's gone, but by god has it been a monumental struggle to keep on going.

So long as he sorts out a payment plan with the people we got our loan off and sticks to it, then that is all that needs to be done, and it will save me £100 a week paying this loan back.

As for giving his details to various people that are owed it, i'm guessing they are not being too successful because yesterday I received a bill from one of them asking me for the money!

He will pay what he owes, even if I have to embarass him at every single employer to get the message across that he needs to pay what he owes, but I have a feeling thats going to be a long slog

Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

Problems with ex business partner, advice needed

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