Goods sold and sent via courier

[highwaytohell]

Hi All,
Hoping someone can offer some quick advice on the following:

Few weeks ago, I sold an item on Ebay for £75.00. The goods were despatched to the buyer and arrived ok. He immediately reported that the goods were not working.

I did not have a returns policy, but said if he sent the goods back I would have a look at them and if proved fault will fully refund him.

As it was, on testing the goods they worked fine, and the fact that he had used an incorrect tape in the device (Tape backup unit), did'nt help his case.

I returned the goods to him via courier. (full working order)

Several weeks later he contacts me to say where are my goods.

I did the online tracking via the courier and sent evidence to the buyer to show the Courier tracking and that they had a signature for the receipt of the goods.

He said that was'nt his signature, that he was'nt even home that day. etc etc.

He duly submitted a dispute by Ebay and Paypal, who blocked my account and Paypal withheld funds.

They contacted me, I showed them the proof of posting, the full tracking log to arrival at his house, and the signature the couriers had for the receipt of goods.

Ebay and Paypal found in my favour, quoting that I had done everything reasonable to ensure safe delivery of the goods, and that if the buyer is shouting "Fraud" about the signature, that is between him and the courier.

I submitted documentation to the Courier and explained what the buyer was saying.

The buyer is now shouting all sorts of legal action, as he has been advised by Trading Standards that it is the SELLERS responsibility to refund him.

I dont believe I should on the grounds that:

1. I took all reasonable care to ensure safe delivery.
2. The courier states I cannot claim as records show goods were delivered.
3. Paypal and Ebay found in my favour
5. The "Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982" (which he is quoting) states I must use reasonable "Skill and Care" - I believe I can show that I have.

Any advice would be very much welcome.


Many thanks

HTH

[leclerc]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

What is the fourth ground you have?

Furthermore, has he issued a county court summons? Has he reported the fraud to the police?
Do you have the previous signature from the track and trace?(would be interesting for hand writing comparison of the signature).

[bluebottle]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

Hi Highway,

I hate to tell you this, but you are bound by the Distance Selling Regs 2000. I'm attaching a copy of the Regs to this post. Read through it. It might give you protection, it might not.

[miliitant]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

i believe that the person on ebay has a contract with you and not the courier

you have the ultimate responsability to make sure the client gets the goods

it is you that has to take up the issue with the courier and make a claim, not the customer

i would like to be proved wrong on this and i go by past experiences so dont take my comment as gospel

[bluebottle]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

i believe that the person on ebay has a contract with you and not the courier

you have the ultimate responsability to make sure the client gets the goods

it is you that has to take up the issue with the courier and make a claim, not the customer

i would like to be proved wrong on this and i go by past experiences so dont take my comment as gospel

Highway,

I think you will find that Militant is correct on this. Time to get your hobnail boots on and start kicking the courier's backside.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

Any advice would be very much welcome.

I doubt that, but still...

Why did you use a courier company when Royal Mail Special Delivery could have given you fewer problems?

[Bill-K]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

Hi Highway.

I don't know if Royal Mail would have been any better or not, but the way I see it is that, as the supplier, you are responsible for delivery of the goods. If you don't deliver them yourself, then you employ a courier as your agent in the matter, and pass the charge for this on to the customer. As the courier is your agent, then it does seem to me that any alleged non-delivery has to be investigated between you and the courier.

If the courier insists that they have proof of delivery, then that proof has to be verified, I guess. If you can find a copy of the signature given for the original delivery, then that would be good. Can you obtain this by whatever 'Track & Trace' method the courier uses ? Perhaps tell the courier that the customer is suggesting fraud, and say to them "I am sure you are a reputable courier and above that sort of thing, so let's work together on this. Please can you produce the signature from the earlier delivery of the goods. Us E-bay traders cannot afford to lose our credentials - and thus our business - can we ?" If the two match, then they have either dug themselves into a deeper hole, or they speak the truth, and the customer is the fraud.

Meanwhile, do likewise with the customer, and say summat like, "Look mate. This ain't good, but you've seen that I do my best to put matters right, by sorting out why the product didn't work for you - at my own expense. If the courier is saying that they have your signature, then please could you let me have a copy of your signature. I want you to know that I am doing my best to sort this out for both of us, but I respectfully ask for your help in the matter. Us E-bay traders cannot afford to lose our credentials, as I'm sure you will understand."

Hopefully, whoever is the fraud will back out, because to carry on will dig themselves into a deeper hole, as one party will have evidence which conflicts with the other's - and they both know that.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

I don't know if Royal Mail would have been any better or not, but the way I see it is that, as the supplier, you are responsible for delivery of the goods. If you don't deliver them yourself, then you employ a courier as your agent in the matter, and pass the charge for this on to the customer. As the courier is your agent, then it does seem to me that any alleged non-delivery has to be investigated between you and the courier.

If the courier insists that they have proof of delivery, then that proof has to be verified, I guess. If you can find a copy of the signature given for the original delivery, then that would be good. Can you obtain this by whatever 'Track & Trace' method the courier uses ? Perhaps tell the courier that the customer is suggesting fraud, and say "I am sure you are above that sort of thing, so let's work together on this. Please can you produce the signature from the earlier delivery of the goods. Us E-bay traders cannot afford to lose our credentials, can we ?" If the two match, then ... they speak the truth, and the customer is the fraud.

And if the two do not even approximately match, the supplier will have to contact the buyer to arrange either a refund or a delivery of replacement goods.

Meanwhile, do likewise with the customer, and say summat like, "Look mate. This ain't good, but you've seen that I do my best to put matters right, by sorting out why the product didn't work for you - at my own expense. If the courier is saying that they have your signature, then please could you let me have a copy of your signature. I want you to know that I am doing my best to sort this out for both of us, but I respectfully ask for your help in the matter. Us E-bay traders cannot afford to lose our credentials, as I'm sure you will understand."

It should not be necessary to obtain the customer's signature, as he may wish to alter it to make it appear he has not received goods delivered to him.

Just ask the courier company at this stage, as they should have two examples of the customer's signature on file.

[Bill-K]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

And if the two do not even approximately match, the supplier will have to contact the buyer to arrange either a refund or a delivery of replacement goods.



It should not be necessary to obtain the customer's signature, as he may wish to alter it to make it appear he has not received goods delivered to him.

Just ask the courier company at this stage, as they should have two examples of the customer's signature on file.

I see your point, but I believe in giving both parties as much rope as they may require, and the guilty party will tie their own noose. Either party could yet be the dodgy supplier of a 'Norwegian Blue.'

Beautiful plumage, though, I agree...

[Guest]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

Hi Highway,

I hate to tell you this, but you are bound by the Distance Selling Regs 2000. I'm attaching a copy of the Regs to this post. Read through it. It might give you protection, it might not.

I dont think these apply to auction and none commertial sales BB.

Peter

[Bill-K]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

That's a point, PB. Not all sales in Ebay are by auction, or non-commercial, though. Perhaps we need to be clear on this, first. Was this a commercial sale ? And was it a fixed-price "Buy Now" sale, or a private auction ?

[teaboy2]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

Peters right, distance selling regulations apply to business only and not auction or non commercial sales. Problem for must non commercial sellers is that third party Ebay and Paypal that seem to think it applies to non buisness sellers too and as such refund the money to the buyer if the seller can not prove postage, a right pain if the item is small enough to send by standard royal mail - Well its either that or charge double the postage to send via courier. Though question is, is the OP selling commercially, e.g. is in all intent and purposes a business, be it sole trader, or register company?

If it was just a one off sale, then its a private sale, and the distance selling regulations would not apply. Given the circumstances, i find it highly unlikely that the item went to the wrong address or were not received by the buyer, and that they are merely trying to avoid honouring their part of the sales contract. Its clear they relised the product was not compatible with the tape they wanted to use it for, and thought claiming it was faulty would relief them of their contract duties to pay. They then, when told upon inspection the item, and were told it was not faulty and they had been using the wrong type of tape and the product would be sent back to them, decided to say they had not received it.

So what they are saying is we received it, but do not want it so have not received it - Otherwise known as fraud and breach of contract, as they have benefited and if they bring a claim against you it is they that have to prove non receipt of goods, which is clearly difficult since they were signed for and sent to the same postal address on both occasions, so on balance of probabilities given the facts of the case stated by the OP, they would not stand a chance in court.

If you have the money for the item, just say, look we have prove the item was received by you - Paypal agreed. If you want to take legal action then the onus is on them as the claiment to prove they did not sign or receive the items on the second occasions, and a judge would rule on balance of probability. Which in this case would likely be that they did receive the goods and are simply trying to avoid their contractual obiligations, by getting a refund, whilst likely keeping and benefiting fromt he goods or selling them on to someone else for further financial benefit. Also point out to them that costs involved in such legal action will be thousands of pounds as they would have to not only pay their legal costs, but also your legal costs should they lose, which they are very likely to end up losing.

[Bill-K]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

I would hope it didn't get to this stage, but this is where I think it's important to gather evidence early. If the buyer can show that their original signature differs from the second one produced by the courier, then they will win, surely ? They will have effectively been defrauded by the seller's agent, the courier. If the buyer tries to fabricate their earlier signature to match the second one, then they are committing fraud.

If it gets to court, I am sure that a genuine version of the buyer's signature could be produced from somewhere ? But this would not be worth a light unless and until we have the buyer's attempt at fraud or forgery, first.

Rope's cheap, give 'em it, say I - and see what they do with it.

[teaboy2]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

I would hope it didn't get to this stage, but this is where I think it's important to gather evidence early. If the buyer can show that their original signature differs from the second one produced by the courier, then they will win, surely ? They will have effectively been defrauded by the seller's agent, the courier. If the buyer tries to fabricate their earlier signature to match the second one, then they are committing fraud.

If it gets to court, I am sure that a genuine version of the buyer's signature could be produced from somewhere ? But this would not be worth a light unless and until we have the buyer's attempt at fraud or forgery, first.

Rope's cheap, give 'em it, say I - and see what they do with it.

Not necessarily, remeber the goods are signed for electronicaly mainly now, so the signitures do vary significantly - Ever tried signing only for the screen to not pick up half your signiture etc? It will likely be based on balance of probability and the buyers motive for not wanting the goods based on the facts of the case. The fact that paypal also sided with the seller will go against the buyer too. It is for the buyer to prove the signiture is not his, which is going to be difficult if signed electronically given what i said above, when you consider that their name will also have be given as the person signing. Its also likely that even if the signiture is not a complete match, a couriers signiture would look completely different where as the same person that signed for both would have unique points in the signiture that match, such as the start and end points. IF a courier signed it, those points will not match at all given they probably do not know what the buyers signiture looks like.

So the case will be decided more on the historical facts of the case than on the signitures unless the buyer can prove it was not him that signed it.

[Bill-K]

Re: Goods sold and sent via courier

...a couriers signiture would look completely different where as the same person that signed for both would have unique points in the signiture that match, such as the start and end points. IF a courier signed it, those points will not match at all given they probably do not know what the buyers signiture looks like.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, TB. And if the buyer tried to forge the courier's attempt, then they would be in severe difficulty, as they have not seen it. It's all evidence - and when we're talking about probabilities, then evidence is hard currency, surely ?