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Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

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  • Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

    Hello again, I did say I had a number of balls in the air, of which this is another!

    Briefly, the background is that the entire estate that we live on had asbestos in the meter cupboard doors directly outside the front door, this has been known about for the last 6 years. This year, the freeholders decided to have it removed and replaced at a cost of circa £2K per leaseholder which represents the total cost. However, in a letter (on the same subject) sent in 2003 it states:- Your individual charge which is calculated as 6.25% of £542.01 (block cost), as per your lease is £33.88.

    They say that although asbestos when it is contained and encapsulated is safe, they were forced to act as some were damaged and it had become a health risk. Now, the cupboards outside my door had been damaged for well over two years, and it is my contention that they have not maintained them at all and are now passing the buck. I have requested the inspection records etc. and received nothing but highly generalised mail shots sent to all concerned.

    The upshot is, that they are taking the case to the LVT for their adjudication, and what I'd like to know is, do I have case enough to submit a bundle? If so, I have no idea how to put one together. I will copy the letter I sent to the housing association (via special delivery) in a separate window, as it may make things a little clearer.

    Sorry it's a little long winded, but hope you all can give me an educated steer.
    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
    Copy of letter, btw all requests ignored and the work has now been carried out.

    Dear Ms. ...

    RE: Notice of intention to carry out works under a long term agreement

    Further to your letter dated 6th February which invited written response by 9th March, I hereby notify you of my observations concerning the proposed removal of asbestos from the adjacent service cupboards.

    · First and foremost, upon the instruction of Mr ..... (CCP-Certificate of Competence) I would like to formally request copies of ....’s asbestos register, inspection record, and risk register (HS100), as the meter cupboard door outside my dwelling has been damaged for somewhere in the region of 2-3 years (within easy reach of my two children aged 4 & 2) and, it is my belief that under CAWR 2002 ..... is the duty holder.

    As detailed in your letter, this represents a health risk, on that basis, I will be consulting my children’s GP on 04/03/09 to have a note put on their health records for possible future reference. This has caused us quite a degree of anxiety as I had been under the impression that the situation was being managed.

    · My secondary concern is cost. I have always believed that communal areas were the responsibility of ......, but will seek clarity. I concur with the other leaseholders I have spoken with that the estimate of £1884.03 per leasehold, is a vast amount in the current climate, especially in light of alternative quotes obtained by leaseholders. Therefore, please could you provide me with the name of the company who will be allocated the contract for this work as, to date, I’m not aware of its publication, along with a total breakdown of cost. I trust that the Directorship of ....... have no interest or affiliation

    · One further point which has been raised amongst leaseholders is the question of the buildings insurance which is paid by us as part of our service charge, and which surely covers accidental damage/vandalism? Surely, the affected doors should have been replaced immediately and claimed for? Thereby preventing a health & safety issue to anyone, in the first instance.


    I have also attached for your perusal a copy of a letter which was sent to my former neighbour (not being able to locate mine, at present) in October of 2003, as you will see there is a marked difference in how the cost to leaseholders was calculated I would welcome some kind of explanation as to what has changed.

    I realise that this is a lengthy list of requirements; however, it reflects the lack of information provided by ...., as the whole process to date has been anything but transparent. I look forward to receiving a comprehensive written reply to my observations before you make any binding agreement, on my behalf, with your contractor.
    Last edited by Colette; 29th March 2009, 10:56:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  • #2
    Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

    What a Leashold tribunal is
    Residential Property Tribunal Service: About Us - Leasehold Valuation Tribunals
    Process involved
    Residential Property Tribunal Service: Using Our Services - Leasehold Disputes
    Appealing the decision
    Residential Property Tribunal Service: Using Our Services - Appealing Against a Decision

    I have no knowledge of their workings so I hope others can advise after reading the above links.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

      Just because I am confused so to clarify...the freeholder is trying to charge every leaseholder £2k for replacing the cupboard doors, or is it £2k split between all the leaseholders ?

      In 2003 the cost per leaseholder would have been £33 and they are now saying the cost per leaseholder is £125 (working on 6.25%).


      Since 2003 the costs of removing and disposing of asbestos have more than likely risen significantly, stronger regulations came in in 2006 and the cost of disposal has most likely risen too. If the amount has risen from £33 to £125 I think that would be understandable although they should show invoices etc to the leaseholders and ask as you have asked show that inspection and maintenance was carried out...also not sure that meter boxes on the outside wall of each property would be communal or not..so you need to look into that (case law etc?).

      I'm not quite sure what the tribunal is for so if you can clarify that, and the price charged to individual leaseholders
      #staysafestayhome

      Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

      Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

        Hi Amethyst,

        I don't blame you for being confused!

        The cost per block in 2003 was £542, of which our contribution was calculated (as per our lease apparently) as 6.25% which was £33. The cost per block now is £12K (6 flats per block) so £2K each...no mention of 6.25% now.

        The meter cupboards are in communal areas, so it is down to the housing assoc. to inform all workmen i.e. gas fitters, electricians, meter readers, etc. who may access these of the presence of asbestos. Due to the condition, the HSE ordered them to have them fixed. It is my contention that they have put peoples health in jeopardy over the last 6 years, due to their failure to act as and when repairs/replacements became necessary. They don't seem to want to part with their inspection records or risk register which, had they been done correctly, would have noted that mine have been damaged for years. Had that been noted, why were they not fixed?

        I'm pretty angry about it, as it seems they just want to pass the buck and accept no responsibility.

        The LVT have taken over most of these disputes from County courts, their judgements are also enforceable.
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        Originally posted by natweststaffmember View Post
        What a Leashold tribunal is
        Residential Property Tribunal Service: About Us - Leasehold Valuation Tribunals
        Process involved
        Residential Property Tribunal Service: Using Our Services - Leasehold Disputes
        Appealing the decision
        Residential Property Tribunal Service: Using Our Services - Appealing Against a Decision

        I have no knowledge of their workings so I hope others can advise after reading the above links.
        Hi Nattie,

        I did have a look earlier today and, it appears that interested parties (i.e. me) can submit bundles to counter the Housing Associations claims. Just not sure that my complaint warrants such action (I wouldn't want to be laughed out), or if it does, how I would go about it lol
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        Sorry Amethyst, I meant to add that the cupboards are located in the stairwell. So accessible by anyone, which is how mine came to be damaged, somebody, at some time, tried to crowbar it open. Probably thought it was a store cupboard or something.
        Last edited by Colette; 29th March 2009, 12:32:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

          Okay I agree with you in that case regarding the freeholders (housing association) responsibilty to have inspected and fixed things over the last few years as problems arose. Do you know why the work didnt go ahead in 2003?

          So the amount you should be paying is £750 if the lease states this 6.25% as per 2003. Although that is a massive leap from £33 ! so yes, invoices and quotations etc should be available for the leaseholders to view. £12k from £542 per block is just mad.

          Will have a look up about housing associations / LVT etc see what you can do.

          You mention other peoples quote in your letter to the HA - what kind of level were those quotes at?


          Originally posted by norwich council re leasehold flats
          However, we do have a responsibility for asbestos containing materials on the exterior and in the common parts (including roof spaces, stairwells). Should you
          notice any damage to materials in the common areas you should
          report this to the Council
          Originally posted by Colette View Post
          Hi Amethyst,

          I don't blame you for being confused!

          The cost per block in 2003 was £542, of which our contribution was calculated (as per our lease apparently) as 6.25% which was £33. The cost per block now is £12K (6 flats per block) so £2K each...no mention of 6.25% now.

          The meter cupboards are in communal areas, so it is down to the housing assoc. to inform all workmen i.e. gas fitters, electricians, meter readers, etc. who may access these of the presence of asbestos. Due to the condition, the HSE ordered them to have them fixed. It is my contention that they have put peoples health in jeopardy over the last 6 years, due to their failure to act as and when repairs/replacements became necessary. They don't seem to want to part with their inspection records or risk register which, had they been done correctly, would have noted that mine have been damaged for years. Had that been noted, why were they not fixed?

          I'm pretty angry about it, as it seems they just want to pass the buck and accept no responsibility.

          The LVT have taken over most of these disputes from County courts, their judgements are also enforceable.
          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------


          Hi Nattie,

          I did have a look earlier today and, it appears that interested parties (i.e. me) can submit bundles to counter the Housing Associations claims. Just not sure that my complaint warrants such action (I wouldn't want to be laughed out), or if it does, how I would go about it lol
          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
          Sorry Amethyst, I meant to add that the cupboards are located in the stairwell. So accessible by anyone, which is how mine came to be damaged, somebody, at some time, tried to crowbar it open. Probably thought it was a store cupboard or something.
          #staysafestayhome

          Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

          Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

            I have no idea why the works didn't go ahead in 2003, it wasn't long after this that I took myself off to Yorkshire for a while and other events became more significant. Other leaseholders obtained some quotes, the general sum which seemed to keep coming back was £500 per floor (2 flats, so £250 each), of course this just covers removal and disposal not the cost of replacement. However, I wouldn't expect the cost of replacements to outweigh the cost of R&R. All academic anyway, as they had already decided who was going to to the work, and even broke their own 'consultation period' as the HSE had apparently ordered them to proceed.

            They had the bloomin' cheek to send a letter on Friday thanking all those who wrote with their concerns, and that they're satisfied they've answered everyones' concerns/queries. I'm still waiting on what I requested in the letter above, so I will be drafting another letter today.

            The bottom line is that although they understand, it doesn't matter as they think the sum is reasonable for the work carried out and we still have to pay 'as per the terms of our lease'. The 6.25% portion in 2003 was also billed as being 'as per.....' and still unanswered.

            It doesn't help that trying to read the lease is like trying to become au fait with Swahili, so I think I'm going to have to cough for a Solicitor, I didn't want to as it looks like we'll be out of pocket enough already.

            The crux of my argument is that they have known about this for 6 years and, even setting aside the H&S aspect, it is through their mismanagement (neglect-although to put that in my letter would probably be tantamount to libel) that the cost has spiralled out of all proportion.

            It's going before the LVT as the leaseholders raised a petition, quite a few pensioners live around here who simply don't have the money, or would have to go without in order to pay it on the drip. My neighbour has also just been made redundant so, as you can imagine, feelings are running slightly high.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

              Actually, the only thing which does spring to mind is that our housing assoc. merged with another (last year I think it was) and whether that has confused things I don't know.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

                So have you actually received individual bills for £2k ?

                Can you find the mention of this 6.25% in your leasehold document ?

                I would have though a housing association are obliged to get 3 tender quotations for any work such as this.

                At a tribunal these quotes the leasholders have obtained should hold the view that the charge by the HA is vastly inflated.

                £250 odd each does sound about right considering the tightening of regs and disposal in 2006.

                £2k each sounds ridiculous.
                #staysafestayhome

                Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Leasehold Valuation Tribunal

                  Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                  So have you actually received individual bills for £2k ?

                  Can you find the mention of this 6.25% in your leasehold document ?

                  I would have though a housing association are obliged to get 3 tender quotations for any work such as this.

                  At a tribunal these quotes the leasholders have obtained should hold the view that the charge by the HA is vastly inflated.

                  £250 odd each does sound about right considering the tightening of regs and disposal in 2006.

                  £2k each sounds ridiculous.
                  We've received letters stating what the cost will be individually, as it's going to tribunal they can't actually invoice until the case is decided.

                  I'll dig out the lease this evening when the children are in bed otherwise I can't concentrate, it's about as thick as the new testament and heavy with legal jargon, I think just about anything could be buried within it.

                  As to quotes, it seems to me they only ever had just the one, I've asked for a total break down of costs and (as with everything else) not received it.

                  Work commenced on 4th March (the consultation period ended on 9th March) and they wrote a letter to all concerned (also dated 4th March) I quote:-

                  'The HSE code states that as the electric/gas cupboards are in constant use, they are classified as immediate risk regardless of whether any physical damage has occurred to them.

                  ...... will be applying to the Leasehold Valuation Tribunal (LVT) for dispensation in order that the works can commence straight away as there is a health & safety risk identified'

                  So, at the point of writing and work commencing, they didn't actually have permission for the work to commence, simply applying for it.

                  Comment

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