Parents sold my piano of 17 years without my permission

[matt09]

I'm based in England and this is my first post here, would really appreciate some help.

I'm a casual musician and have owned a beautiful Yamaha piano for the past 17 years, like most musicians I have a very strong connection to the instrument. It was purchased for me by my parents and has remained at their property since it was owned. I only recently bought a house and it wasn't appropriate to haul it around rental properties.

My parents casually mentioned they had sold it last Friday to my disbelief, at a price of next to nothing. They informed me I would be receiving the small sum. They did not voice any intention that it would be sold prior, and as the gifted owner I did not consent to the sale of it.

I have been in touch with the piano dealer who has been very understanding but is unsure how exactly to proceed with the situation since he has now sold it to a shop outlet. He said he will be in touch with the shop to see if it is still for sale or already residing in a new home. He is also unsure of his own legal rights, I expressed that the seller (my parents) did not have good title to the good under the sale of goods act, I realise this may be incorrect since it was purchased and paid for by my parents, although gifted to myself. The dealer was told it was gifted to me when my parents sold it so there is no debate on this.

Please could anyone advise on my rights to claiming the piano back, further questions include

- Am I liable for any admin fees or costs associated with retrieving it, either with the dealer or third party shop? Obviously I'm excluding fees for me to have it transported to my property if I reclaim it

- Can the dealer demand more money for the piano itself than was paid out for it?

Thank you

This isn't so much a monetary issue as a sentimental one, I'm most concerned with my rights to reclaim the piano and don't wish to involve my parents further with recovery of funds to the true value.

I'm not clear if being unofficially gifted the piano makes me the legal owner, and if the sale was illegitimate legally. I would like to know the applicable acts / laws on these points so I can state my legal rights simply to the dealer when we speak again tomorrow.

[PallasAthena]

When your parents bought it they were presumably the legal owner of the piano. So do you have evidence that that they gifted ownership to you? Or did they buy it for you to use and continue to own it themselves?

It's not legal theory that will be most important here but actual evidence about who said what to who about ownership.

I suspect the Sale of Goods Act is irrelevant to gifts within a family as it seems the piano wasn't sold to you by your parents, there was no 'monetary consideration'. But I'm not a lawyer, let's see what the lawyers on here think.

[matt09]

It was bought explicitly for me but the original invoice is in their name, the was no formal signing of ownership to me or money exchanged. When I spoke to the dealer he was of this already aware it has been bought as a gift for me.

If required my parents would probably sign something stating it was gifted to me but I'm not intending to purse legal action, I hope that "pre action" talks will be sufficient provided there are grounds.

Thanks

[PallasAthena]

Really, your parents would sign something admitting they had stolen your property and sold it?

Maybe it's them who need some legal advice if that's what they are considering.

If your parents now regret selling it without your agreement there's a much easier way to resolve it. They can smply give you the money to go and buy it back again.

[matt09]

They don't regret selling it but it was out of thoughtlessness. They understand I am not happy but did not have bad intentions. So if it meant I could retrieve the piano they would probably sign something stating it was my gift.

They wouldn't however agree to buy it back a premium marked up price. They are giving me the sale value money which I can give back to the dealer.

[PallasAthena]

If I were your parents I would think carefully before signing a document that is going to the purchaser saying that I misrepresented my right to sell. Their intentions are irrelevant.

The whole thing seems completely misconceived to me as a case for litigation "pre-action". If your parents feel that bad about their thoughtlessness they should just get out tomorrow morning to the shop that now has it and buy it back.

Sure, they'll have to pay more than they got for it but that's the price of correcting their thoughtlessness. If they want to correct it.

[matt09]

They are't going to purchase it back at a higher price so that isn't an option I can take. I hope there enough grounds for other options which what I'm looking to investigate here.

[wales01man]

What others grounds are there to get this back? Its been sold then resold all in good faith by the buyers cannot see any reason for them to get it back to your parents unless they can profit from the purchase

Sorry to sound so negative if only the clock cou;d be turned back

[matt09]

The grounds are all in the first post, mainly - I'm not clear if being unofficially gifted the piano makes me the legal owner, and if the sale was illegitimate legally.

I posted here to find out if my good is protected under any law or act for possible reclamation (or not).

[PallasAthena]

There's no such thing as "unofficially" gifted. It was either gifted to you or it wasn't. That's a question of fact and, more importantly, evidence. Whether you have evidence to prove it. And apparently you don't. There's no evidence, from your posts, that you ever owned this piano or have any legal rights over it.

Simply asserting it was yours counts for nothing without evidence.

I can't think why your parents would now put in writing that they had committed fraud by misrepresentation by saying they had sold your property while pretending it was theirs.

[matt09]

It was bought for me as a birthday gift, that's it. No paper work or signing it over to state it was my property.
The dealer was told directly by my parents that it was bought as a gift for me
I have read conflicting information online to suggest this may be sufficient to be legally classed as my property once given, I'm waiting for someone to clarify this as a matter of law.

[PallasAthena]

"I bought it for my son" is not the same as "I gifted legal ownership to my son". "I bought it for my son" can just as easily mean your parents bought it for you to use but it remained their piano. It isn't the law that is the issue here, it is the (lack of) evidence.

Anyway, I have nothing more to add to the thread. I don't believe you have legal case to force the dealer who bought it in good faith to return it to you. Lawyers might be able to give you a different view.

Why aren't your parents going to the dealer and asking for it back? It was them that sold it. Even if the dealer were willing to return it as a goodwill gesture he isn't going to give it to you! At least I'd hope he wouldn't as you weren't the seller. He'd return it to your parents.

[matt09]

No one has asked for evidence thus far and there is no intention to file a case for this, as it stands I'm simply trying to ascertain if the good is protected under any law or act in my circumstances, either as my property, illegitimate sale, or both.
If evidence is demanded then I can approach that issue as needed.

I would really appreciate if a lawyer here could provide a clear answer if the sale breaches anything or not.

Thanks

[islandgirl]

Reality check...would you really want to accuse your parents of a criminal offence even if (big if) you had grounds to do so? Just try to get it back from where it is now and move on. There is more at stake than a piano here.

[des8]

If the situation is as described by you, then your parents could not pass good title to the dealer, who in turn could not pass good title on to the shop keeper , who in turn......

.The general contract rule is that a seller must have good title to any goods (i.e. owns the goods) that he (or she) sells
Without good title a person does not have the right to sell them, and the buyer does not obtain good title and will likely have to return the goods

It is not a defence to say that the buyer did not know, and the goods (or a full refund if the item cannot be located) will still have to be returned.

That's the theory.... but putting it into practice without going to court (I note you exclude that course of action) might be difficult if the current possessor declines to co- operate.

Perhaps a personal approach to all parties concerned, with an explanation of the circumstances and an emotional plea describing how much the instrument means to you might have the desired result, whereas going in all legal might just be confrontational.

Good luck