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Hi everyone, this is quite a lengthy post, apologies! Perhaps an interesting read though… get the pot brewing.
I issued 15 days ago a letter before court claim (via email) to a used car dealer/trader, and I’m just after a bit of advice with the next steps and what to expect should it go to court.
I’ve been speaking to citizens advice, but really was after some practical advice from anyone that may have experienced a similar thing, or perhaps has legal awareness and experience in this field.
I purchased a second hand car for £14,990 on 28th May. The used car dealer was approx. 50 miles away. The vehicle was just shy of being over 5 years old (just out of its manufacturers warranty) and around the 40k mileage mark.
I viewed the car and test drove it for a few miles (2-3 perhaps), seemed to run okay and I left it running for about 15-20 minutes whilst inspecting the rest of the car. I couldn’t identify any faults at the time and the car was advertised as “in first class condition inside and out”. Seemed legit. I have screenshot copies of the advert from their website.
The salesman I spoke to said there were no known faults with the vehicle (some of the same models of the car had a recall issued, unrelated to the fault I believe, which I asked about - they couldn’t tell me but when checking online there weren’t any recalls outstanding on this car). At this point I assumed all good, paid the man on debit card and started my drive home.
That’s when it went became apparent I’d made a mistake.
Around 10 miles from home, so I’d done the bulk of the journey by this point, a red warning light appeared on the dash! It was the oil pressure warning light.
Now in my experience, red warning lights are pretty serious. This will become important later.
My wife who was with me checked the owners manual and the advice was to pull over and turn the engine off.
Before I had a chance to do that the light flicked off, just as soon as it had appeared it had disappeared. I found somewhere to pull over regardless and turned the engine off. I left it a few minutes to wait for the engine oil to cool down and proceeded to check the engine oil level. It was fine, at the max line or just about. Strange!
I started the car and the light wasn’t illuminated. I carried on my journey, but then within a few minutes it appeared again!
The pulling over, turning the engine off, waiting for a few minutes, carrying on the journey and the light intermittently coming on and off whilst driving continued for the last 10 miles of the journey home. Multiple times.
Ideally I would have taken it straight back to the used car dealer that sold it to me, but being 40 miles away from them and relatively close to home, and not feeling comfortable driving the vehicle too far with a red warning light on, I didn’t want to risk causing any damage.
I spoke to the used dealer when I got home and their advice was to “drive it around over the weekend and see how it goes”. WTF! Probably the worst advice I’d heard. I actually live close to a main dealer of this particular vehicle manufacturer, so I rang them.
The main dealer advised it could be a range of things, but informed me that the last couple of cars (same model) they had in with the same fault ended up needing new engines. Alarming to say the least, but I was prepared to get the vehicle diagnosed and if minor then repaired and keep it (as I actually really like it, apart from what I thought could be a potential easy fix).
I rang the used dealer and explained the light had come on again. I hadn’t drove it but was confident it wouldn’t just magically go away. They wanted me to drive it back to them, 50 miles away. I wasn’t prepared to do this. They wouldn’t collect it. I suggested to take it to the local main dealer (independent too, which I assumed would help protect me) for a diagnostic if the used car dealer was willing to pay. After some back and forth they agreed.
It took about a week to get it booked in (7th June), the diagnostic was performed by local main dealer and they stated a leaky oil pressure sendor/switch was the cause of the warning light appearing on the dash. A replacement one would rectify it, at the cost of £325. This with the diagnostic fee of &115 was coming in over £400. Suffice to say the used car dealer didn’t want to pay that amount, and stated they could supply and fit one for less than £100. Of course they wanted me to drive it back to them, and I wasn’t too happy about that.
I’m a reasonable person, so rather than try to force them to pay main dealer prices or to collect the vehicle, I suggested another local independent garage and m.o.t service centre do the work (that I have used before and trust their work), that was about the same distance from my house in the opposite direction as the main dealer (< 0.5 mile). I felt comfortable driving the car there for the sake of 2 minutes. The used car dealer agreed as the local independent garage quoted the same price, there or there abouts.
Turns out the aftermarket oil pressure switch doesn’t fit? Something to do with two terminals rather than the standard or aftermarket single terminal. Anyway. They ended up getting the official new part from the main dealer that diagnosed it originally (talk about time wasted) and in the end I think it came in about £60-£80 cheaper than the main dealer price (probably on labour).
It was ready to collect from the independent garage on the 16th June. I collected it, test drove it and low and behold, oil pressure warning light comes on again (within about 6-7 miles this time).
This is when I phoned the used dealer and asked for a refund. I also put it in writing (e-mail). This is like 20 days from date of purchase.
Conveniently the ‘boss’ who has the final say on refunds wasn’t in (some BS about surgery) and this carried on for a few weeks. Apparently the guy who took my money, the salesman, isn’t authorised to issue refunds. Again, probably a lie. So by now I’ve paid for a car, and still paying insurance/tax/breakdown etc, for something that can’t use for its intended purpose. The fault hasn’t been rectified in my opinion, and it sounds like a timing time bomb waiting to go wrong.
In between all of this I spoke to the main car manufacturer dealer near me and they advised they could run a second diagnostic on it for free, and they did. They checked the fault codes, the fitting of the original sensor and the wiring to it and the sensor came back fine, but fault codes were still present. Likely there were interrelated multiple faults with the oil management/circulation/engine system.
They said they could do further diagnosis on the oil system with next logical step being the oil pump, but would want another £200 to start that. Then if it was the oil pump you’re talking £1k for a ‘clean’ replace. The alternative is that the oil pump has started to degrade and is not clean, with shavings etc leaving the pump and being circulated around the engine…… then you’re talking £8k + VAT later for a new engine!
Their advice was to reject the vehicle within 30 days of purchase per consumer rights act 2015, which I was aware of, as I had entertained the option for an initial repair - which failed, per guidance from citizens advice.
I made the used car dealer aware of this. They stated I should return the car to them! I put my foot down and said they had better collect it if they want to look at it, but irrespective I’m still exercising my right to reject the vehicle as not fit for purpose/satisfactory quality/as described (I think it fits into all three?).
They collected the vehicle and it was towed away on 29th June, so clearly they didn’t want to drive it either, but were quite happy with me driving it back to them…
I followed up with calls to chase status of refund, nothing. Same old run around.
By 5th July I issued a letter before court claim. Again, heard nothing. Followed it up with calls, promised I’d get a call back, nada.
I eventually got an answer out of the salesman as to what they had done to repair the car (mute point as I had requested a refund within the 30 days prior to this anyway and put it in writing). Apparently the oil pressure switch was ‘half hanging out’ and had been ‘fitted using ptfe tape’. Now, I spoke to both the independent garage and the main dealer who both denied this claim. I’m inclined to believe them over the used car dealer, as they have no vested interest in this vehicle, or my £14,990. Also, hard to believe that the fault wouldn’t show up as soon as I turned the engine over if this was the case and waited until a few miles in. All very suspicious.
On the 19th July I eventually got through to the main ‘boss’. He reiterated the same thing as the salesman I spoke to (who btw, is a director in the business according to companies house - so that BS about not being able to authorise or issue a refund was also likely total b******s).
Apparently the car is repaired, had/has no fault, has been driven for up to 700 miles since they collected it and they can’t get the fault/warning light to show on the dash.
I explained again that I requested a refund under consumer rights act and they aren’t above the law, to cut their losses before it becomes more expensive for them and it goes to court, as I intend to follow through with the right to reject the vehicle.
Well, to say he sounded confident I would lose in court would be an understatement. I can’t figure out what his angle is, delay tactic? Wear me down to just accept vehicle back perhaps?
They replied to my email finally yesterday, with this:
‘Hi as per our conversation yesterday i can confirm that i do not accept your right to return your car to us as its not fit for purpose as the light that came on did not render it unsafe or unable to be used a new sender was not fit correctly by your chosen garage we fit part right and have driven car many times and oil light not come back on kind regards, please confirm when you would like your car delivered back to you’.
By this point I have,
1. Offered a chance for initial attempt at repair, even though I didn’t need to, through mutually agreed independent garage (which failed).
2. Had the work performed in step 1 above checked by another independent garage (main dealer), again even though I didn’t need to (more for my peace of mind).
3. Exercised my right to reject vehicle per consumer rights act 2015.
4. The vehicle is no longer at my premises, and is with the used car dealer I purchased it from. They collected it (towed away).
5. Issued a letter before court claim.
6. Have in writing (email) a response from the seller stating that they reject my right to refund.
7. Started a charge back process on my debit card with my bank.
I think another possible solution to avoid court is to involve an ombudsman? I believe I can do that now rather than the 8 weeks they advise as I have a written response from seller. I’m not sure how helpful this will be as the seller is very stubborn. They rejected the refund and the Alternative Disputes Resolution I offered in the letter before court claim.
Any suggestions? At this point I feel it’s going to go to court.
I’m assuming it’s not small claims court as value is above £10k?
Are there any costs I could be adding to the amount I’m claiming if it were to go to court (full purchase cost + interest + damages, I.e. I planned to go away and have had to pay for train for one trip to Lake District, and then hire of a car to drive to and from Norfolk)?
Any advice and guidance would be hugely appreciated!
Of course I would like to avoid court, but will pursue if no other viable options.
Thanks
I issued 15 days ago a letter before court claim (via email) to a used car dealer/trader, and I’m just after a bit of advice with the next steps and what to expect should it go to court.
I’ve been speaking to citizens advice, but really was after some practical advice from anyone that may have experienced a similar thing, or perhaps has legal awareness and experience in this field.
I purchased a second hand car for £14,990 on 28th May. The used car dealer was approx. 50 miles away. The vehicle was just shy of being over 5 years old (just out of its manufacturers warranty) and around the 40k mileage mark.
I viewed the car and test drove it for a few miles (2-3 perhaps), seemed to run okay and I left it running for about 15-20 minutes whilst inspecting the rest of the car. I couldn’t identify any faults at the time and the car was advertised as “in first class condition inside and out”. Seemed legit. I have screenshot copies of the advert from their website.
The salesman I spoke to said there were no known faults with the vehicle (some of the same models of the car had a recall issued, unrelated to the fault I believe, which I asked about - they couldn’t tell me but when checking online there weren’t any recalls outstanding on this car). At this point I assumed all good, paid the man on debit card and started my drive home.
That’s when it went became apparent I’d made a mistake.
Around 10 miles from home, so I’d done the bulk of the journey by this point, a red warning light appeared on the dash! It was the oil pressure warning light.
Now in my experience, red warning lights are pretty serious. This will become important later.
My wife who was with me checked the owners manual and the advice was to pull over and turn the engine off.
Before I had a chance to do that the light flicked off, just as soon as it had appeared it had disappeared. I found somewhere to pull over regardless and turned the engine off. I left it a few minutes to wait for the engine oil to cool down and proceeded to check the engine oil level. It was fine, at the max line or just about. Strange!
I started the car and the light wasn’t illuminated. I carried on my journey, but then within a few minutes it appeared again!
The pulling over, turning the engine off, waiting for a few minutes, carrying on the journey and the light intermittently coming on and off whilst driving continued for the last 10 miles of the journey home. Multiple times.
Ideally I would have taken it straight back to the used car dealer that sold it to me, but being 40 miles away from them and relatively close to home, and not feeling comfortable driving the vehicle too far with a red warning light on, I didn’t want to risk causing any damage.
I spoke to the used dealer when I got home and their advice was to “drive it around over the weekend and see how it goes”. WTF! Probably the worst advice I’d heard. I actually live close to a main dealer of this particular vehicle manufacturer, so I rang them.
The main dealer advised it could be a range of things, but informed me that the last couple of cars (same model) they had in with the same fault ended up needing new engines. Alarming to say the least, but I was prepared to get the vehicle diagnosed and if minor then repaired and keep it (as I actually really like it, apart from what I thought could be a potential easy fix).
I rang the used dealer and explained the light had come on again. I hadn’t drove it but was confident it wouldn’t just magically go away. They wanted me to drive it back to them, 50 miles away. I wasn’t prepared to do this. They wouldn’t collect it. I suggested to take it to the local main dealer (independent too, which I assumed would help protect me) for a diagnostic if the used car dealer was willing to pay. After some back and forth they agreed.
It took about a week to get it booked in (7th June), the diagnostic was performed by local main dealer and they stated a leaky oil pressure sendor/switch was the cause of the warning light appearing on the dash. A replacement one would rectify it, at the cost of £325. This with the diagnostic fee of &115 was coming in over £400. Suffice to say the used car dealer didn’t want to pay that amount, and stated they could supply and fit one for less than £100. Of course they wanted me to drive it back to them, and I wasn’t too happy about that.
I’m a reasonable person, so rather than try to force them to pay main dealer prices or to collect the vehicle, I suggested another local independent garage and m.o.t service centre do the work (that I have used before and trust their work), that was about the same distance from my house in the opposite direction as the main dealer (< 0.5 mile). I felt comfortable driving the car there for the sake of 2 minutes. The used car dealer agreed as the local independent garage quoted the same price, there or there abouts.
Turns out the aftermarket oil pressure switch doesn’t fit? Something to do with two terminals rather than the standard or aftermarket single terminal. Anyway. They ended up getting the official new part from the main dealer that diagnosed it originally (talk about time wasted) and in the end I think it came in about £60-£80 cheaper than the main dealer price (probably on labour).
It was ready to collect from the independent garage on the 16th June. I collected it, test drove it and low and behold, oil pressure warning light comes on again (within about 6-7 miles this time).
This is when I phoned the used dealer and asked for a refund. I also put it in writing (e-mail). This is like 20 days from date of purchase.
Conveniently the ‘boss’ who has the final say on refunds wasn’t in (some BS about surgery) and this carried on for a few weeks. Apparently the guy who took my money, the salesman, isn’t authorised to issue refunds. Again, probably a lie. So by now I’ve paid for a car, and still paying insurance/tax/breakdown etc, for something that can’t use for its intended purpose. The fault hasn’t been rectified in my opinion, and it sounds like a timing time bomb waiting to go wrong.
In between all of this I spoke to the main car manufacturer dealer near me and they advised they could run a second diagnostic on it for free, and they did. They checked the fault codes, the fitting of the original sensor and the wiring to it and the sensor came back fine, but fault codes were still present. Likely there were interrelated multiple faults with the oil management/circulation/engine system.
They said they could do further diagnosis on the oil system with next logical step being the oil pump, but would want another £200 to start that. Then if it was the oil pump you’re talking £1k for a ‘clean’ replace. The alternative is that the oil pump has started to degrade and is not clean, with shavings etc leaving the pump and being circulated around the engine…… then you’re talking £8k + VAT later for a new engine!
Their advice was to reject the vehicle within 30 days of purchase per consumer rights act 2015, which I was aware of, as I had entertained the option for an initial repair - which failed, per guidance from citizens advice.
I made the used car dealer aware of this. They stated I should return the car to them! I put my foot down and said they had better collect it if they want to look at it, but irrespective I’m still exercising my right to reject the vehicle as not fit for purpose/satisfactory quality/as described (I think it fits into all three?).
They collected the vehicle and it was towed away on 29th June, so clearly they didn’t want to drive it either, but were quite happy with me driving it back to them…
I followed up with calls to chase status of refund, nothing. Same old run around.
By 5th July I issued a letter before court claim. Again, heard nothing. Followed it up with calls, promised I’d get a call back, nada.
I eventually got an answer out of the salesman as to what they had done to repair the car (mute point as I had requested a refund within the 30 days prior to this anyway and put it in writing). Apparently the oil pressure switch was ‘half hanging out’ and had been ‘fitted using ptfe tape’. Now, I spoke to both the independent garage and the main dealer who both denied this claim. I’m inclined to believe them over the used car dealer, as they have no vested interest in this vehicle, or my £14,990. Also, hard to believe that the fault wouldn’t show up as soon as I turned the engine over if this was the case and waited until a few miles in. All very suspicious.
On the 19th July I eventually got through to the main ‘boss’. He reiterated the same thing as the salesman I spoke to (who btw, is a director in the business according to companies house - so that BS about not being able to authorise or issue a refund was also likely total b******s).
Apparently the car is repaired, had/has no fault, has been driven for up to 700 miles since they collected it and they can’t get the fault/warning light to show on the dash.
I explained again that I requested a refund under consumer rights act and they aren’t above the law, to cut their losses before it becomes more expensive for them and it goes to court, as I intend to follow through with the right to reject the vehicle.
Well, to say he sounded confident I would lose in court would be an understatement. I can’t figure out what his angle is, delay tactic? Wear me down to just accept vehicle back perhaps?
They replied to my email finally yesterday, with this:
‘Hi as per our conversation yesterday i can confirm that i do not accept your right to return your car to us as its not fit for purpose as the light that came on did not render it unsafe or unable to be used a new sender was not fit correctly by your chosen garage we fit part right and have driven car many times and oil light not come back on kind regards, please confirm when you would like your car delivered back to you’.
By this point I have,
1. Offered a chance for initial attempt at repair, even though I didn’t need to, through mutually agreed independent garage (which failed).
2. Had the work performed in step 1 above checked by another independent garage (main dealer), again even though I didn’t need to (more for my peace of mind).
3. Exercised my right to reject vehicle per consumer rights act 2015.
4. The vehicle is no longer at my premises, and is with the used car dealer I purchased it from. They collected it (towed away).
5. Issued a letter before court claim.
6. Have in writing (email) a response from the seller stating that they reject my right to refund.
7. Started a charge back process on my debit card with my bank.
I think another possible solution to avoid court is to involve an ombudsman? I believe I can do that now rather than the 8 weeks they advise as I have a written response from seller. I’m not sure how helpful this will be as the seller is very stubborn. They rejected the refund and the Alternative Disputes Resolution I offered in the letter before court claim.
Any suggestions? At this point I feel it’s going to go to court.
I’m assuming it’s not small claims court as value is above £10k?
Are there any costs I could be adding to the amount I’m claiming if it were to go to court (full purchase cost + interest + damages, I.e. I planned to go away and have had to pay for train for one trip to Lake District, and then hire of a car to drive to and from Norfolk)?
Any advice and guidance would be hugely appreciated!
Of course I would like to avoid court, but will pursue if no other viable options.
Thanks
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