A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

[Streetwise]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Hush puppy,they seem to be taking you to court without the paper work.

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Yes they are the large loan was a loan to a LTD company they chose to close there bank accounts we hadn't defaulted on the payments for the loan we just wouldn't sign a document giving them a charge we had paid for 5 years and would of still been paying it today if they would off left things as they were

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Did ask admin a couple of question yesterday and I am just waiting for a reply

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Morning.

Ok, I've passed on details for you. I don't know who Ibas are I'm afraid.

I think the 47k is undefendable - the PG is valid and covers those accounts.

The 250k is trickier. Without any paperwork it's virtually impossible. My thoughts are if it is a Business Loan in yourself and your wifes names as Director and Secretary of Ltd co then it would come under the guarantee, but they aren't claiming it under the guarantee.

They are also claiming it on this same claim, which is a personal claim (for invoking the personal guarantee so it must be) - it's in your name only and not the company name.

You had the £250k (and presumably used it in the business), you made repayments for 5 years on it (on what terms we don't know as there is no paperwork) with no arrears. On balance of probabilities they can prove they gave you £250k and you were repaying it. If it's deemed a regulated loan (ie personal not business) then they would be in poop without any paperwork, if it is business the court could reconstruct what the terms could reasonably be assumed to be.

The bank then decided they'd cocked up, you were a risk (due to the unrelated court case costs), they held no security over you/your firm, and called everything in.

You need to get the documents so the SAR should cover it, but as time is tight, I think a Part 18 request for information would be appropriate. I'm not sure if you should fill in that you will be making an application on the directions questionnaire (as we don't deal with many multitrack cases I'm not 100% on protocols - CPR is http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...l/rules/part29 ) as you have to ask the claimants before making an application if they don't comply.

You know what documents you have and don't have, main one you need is agreement and terms on that 250k loan.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...l/rules/part18
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rt18/pd_part18


What is the current state of play with your business ? From Co house it looks like it was going to be liquidated but that was stopped by creditors?

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Admin thanks for the reply i have found a document which i received on the 30/08/2008 and it was from the Bank specialised development sector a KF1 this was a loan illustration not a loan offer if the document was posted on the 30/08/2008 1st class would of taken two days to arrive the money was in my account on the 01/08/2008 the KF1 is addressed to my wife and myself but at the bottom of the document it states this loan must only be used for business use

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Don't forget the loan was based on Company accounts not personal wages as i did not earn enough and the Company is now dormant and not trading due to not being able to open a bank account

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Can you send me the key facts doc pls.

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

On there waY

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Received

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

But can you please tell me what is your 1st impression do this look good or should we just roll over and die

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Tricky. First impressions is urghhhhhhhhhhh lol. It is just a keyfacts document but it shows it is a 12 month term loan, repayable interest (3.5% over base) quarterly, lump sum at end and secured on your house. So that it was an original 12 month term and its been going over 5 years with the lump sum recallable at any time..............Trying not to be defeatist but it's difficult they seem to have you over a barrell.

Have you checked your land registry documents since 2008 at all ?

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

I have in 2008 i got the deeds back as agreed with the original business manager and this was sent to the new business manager on the 30/08/2008 so by the time they had read it and sanctioned it i may off got it on the 2/3 even the forth of august but i had the money in my account on the 1st. i had a search done 2 weeks ago and all clear nothing there i have4 another section of the letter i will scan it and sent it over

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Business Loans are hard to deal with as they are unregulated, if you can evidence it was taken as a consumer you could get it dealt with as regulated, but I think there's too much pointing it to being business, even though there's no definitive agreement. You could try fight but costs in multi-track will be massive and could just serve to make a bad situation worse. PT is out from the office today but I'm not convinced it'll be in his area of expertise tho I have passed on your details. I would try and see a solicitor though to find out your options with regards repayment of this £300k+ - if you can negotiate with the claimants during this month stay - sort something out by consent order with a charge over your home ?

[hush puppy]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

I seem to struggle with the hard to deal with if you borrow money and they treat you fairly then every thing is a bed of roses if they don't have any security and then sxxt on you they deserve all they get

Sorry for the rant

[Amethyst]

Re: A Bank - Personal Guarantee claim £300k

Rant all you like, its frustrating and makes me bloody angry. There's a thread you might find interesting two tics.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...to-unregulated

Doesn't help you but maybe feel less alone with it. So many threads on here where the aim is to let the loan fail so they can take the security (or not as the case may be)

Lancashire Mortgage Corporation ( Blemain group) set me up to fail. With a unregulated loan agreement. Is there a common theme amongst sub-prime lenders. All they seem to be interested in is repossessing your home whilst making as much money out of you, whilst of causing as much misery along the way.
Forums like this have years of repeating history of blatant abuse of the lending system.
I have started this thread to explore the abuse of unregulated loans. I would really like to hear from anyone who believes they took out a loan they know or believe should have been regulated.

Its easy to hang your head in shame thinking well i signed the agreement, I have found that when trying to get advice there are two different outlooks on this. Some people, particually those associated with lending tend to say, well you signed it! But the smarter ones ask a few more questions to get a bigger picture, then look at the whole story, its important to realise thousand's and thousand's of pounds are spent on training lenders to use mind games. It sounds odd but anyone who has been involved in sales will tell you, there are set plans to take you from A to B or to Z if they want to.

When i took my loan out a lot of confusion was deliberatley caused in brief (very brief)
Titles from the film THE STING
Starring Marc Goldberg not Paul Newman

THE PLAYERS
I applied through a broker who arranged LMC for £45k loan to finish our family home (we had built 3 x houses two were complete) our house was last because we had to wait for plans to be passed to extend it.
note; Brokers have direct access to LMC director Mark Goldberg they explain to him what the customer wants, their circumstances and he gets involved at a very early stage

THE SET UP
I was told it would be second charge, and if it was deemed a business loan, as it would speed things up, (at this stage i was'nt bothered what they called it ) there is no cooling off period, so the loan could be released in a couple of days.

THE HOOK
A loan was sent in principle £50k (why sign in principle?) then agreements and more in principle's £50k then £73k then £59k (its called price conditioning) i ageed to more than i originally wanted now at £59,000 including 3x months payments charges fees commissions etc the loan was ready to sign. all the messing up of paper work was a time wasting exercise because they know when you apply you need the money asap and if they drag it out the more desperate you become

THE TALE
Two LMC directors came to visit me(at a days notice) for a face to face meeting (fact finding so they are fully aware of my situation, and just how desperate i am) i had 3 x houses all on one title deed, so i had to offer all three as security, they asked loads of questions exposing how desperate i was etc.etc. I was told that LMC had stopped lending on new builds (liers they lend on anything of value) but they would make an exeption. I told them my proffession (it was'nt building houses niether have i ever been in the business of building houses this was a one off project to replace our home on 45% of the plot and two others) I was told to sign at the solicitors and the money would be released, i was ok to organise tradesmwen, i signed and it was sent to LMC

THE WIRE
A few days past and i phoned to ask why the funds had not been released. I was informed by Marc Goldberg that they had changed their mind ( gone back on his word and agreement) and now wanted first charge paying off my high street mortgage. with repayments over 6 x more than i had signed on a declaration of income stating what i could afford, our income could not pay over £6475 a month i was in a state of panic, frantic. but i was desperate and they knew it trades men were booked we was having to use a stand pipe for water etc. 6 weeks had passed and i was on my knees. He calmed my fears and talked me through his plan : low rate for 6x months / 4 months payments included in the loan (taking away fears of high repayments)

THE STING
The loans in principle and agreements were sent over including £14,000 of charges but it was realised it would only release £35k 4 more loans were sent over all wrong incorrect calculations etc and each one increasing,adding to the confusion but incorporating payments to lead us into a false sense of security. in a state of anxiaty,confusion and stressed to death, with emotions running high not really knowing what to do for the best. I signed ( not realising i signed away everthing i had, to a professional con artist ) I was now set up to fail

And if that was not bad enough i am now realising exactly what a unregulated business loan really means no legal advice from anywhere unless you can pay dearly for it, ombudsman, FSA, OFT, Citizen advice all tell you they cannot help! Quoted £20,000 to fight it from two different Law Firms you cannot get legal aid for business (even when its not)



So this is the clause added to the agreement
DECLARATION FOR EXEMPTION RELATING TO BUSINESSES
A declaration for the purposes of article 6 must have the following form and content—
“Declaration for exemption relating to businesses
(sections 16B and 189(1) and (2) Consumer Credit Act 1974)
I am/We are* entering this agreement wholly or predominantly for the purposes of a
business carried on by me/us* or intended to be carried by me/us.*
I/We* understand that I/we* will not have the benefit of the protection and remedies that
would be available to me/us* under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 if this agreement were a
regulated agreement under that Act.
I/We* understand that this declaration does not affect the powers of the court to make an
order under section 140B of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 in relation to a credit agreement
where it determines that the relationship between the creditor and the debtor is unfair to the
debtor.**
I am/We are* aware that, if I am/we are* in any doubt as to the consequences of the
agreement not being regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I/we should seek
independent legal advice.”.
*Delete as appropriate.


This declaration should not have been part of the contract because of the following reasons;
Two Blemain LMC directors knew the loan was not predominantly for business purposes this was within their actual knowledge following their home / site visit
The loan was 95% to finish our family home

Now read section 2 & 3. below (this is the piece lenders do not want you to know)



Consumer Credit Act 1974
You are here:
1974 c. 39
Part II
Section 16B

[F116BExemption relating to businessesE+W+S+N.I.
(1)This Act does not regulate—
(a)a consumer credit agreement by which the creditor provides the debtor with credit exceeding £25,000, or
(b)a consumer hire agreement that requires the hirer to make payments exceeding £25,000,
if the agreement is entered into by the debtor or hirer wholly or predominantly for the purposes of a business carried on, or intended to be carried on, by him.
(2)If an agreement includes a declaration made by the debtor or hirer to the effect that the agreement is entered into by him wholly or predominantly for the purposes of a business carried on, or intended to be carried on, by him, the agreement shall be presumed to have been entered into by him wholly or predominantly for such purposes.
(3)But that presumption does not apply if, when the agreement is entered into—
(a)the creditor or owner, or
(b)any person who has acted on his behalf in connection with the entering into of the agreement,
knows, or has reasonable cause to suspect, that the agreement is not entered into by the debtor or hirer wholly or predominantly for the purposes of a business carried on, or intended to be carried on, by him.
(4)The Secretary of State may by order make provision about the form, content and signing of declarations for the purposes of subsection (2).
(5)Where an agreement has two or more creditors or owners, in subsection (3) references to the creditor or owner are references to any one or more of them.
(6)Nothing in this section affects the application of sections 140A to 140C.]