UK Mail Supplier Contract

[Rhothgar]

Good day to all,

We entered into a contract with UK Mail back in April of last year from memory. No issue there. However, in December I was going through our supplier invoices and noticed that they have surreptitiously increased our rate from £6.00 to £6.18 and a per additional kilo weight from £0.25 - £0.26.

As a business owner that has been through some serious wars in the last 2 years, as many of you may know, we are always looking to keep a tight reign on finances plus this is a principle thing - always dangerous, principles!

When I asked them for an explanation, our rep simply sent an email saying "Attached an update price list".

The funny thing is that I have noticed that these charges go back to 1st October 2015.

They called me yesterday to badger me about an outstanding invoice which was due on 29th November that I got around to querying on 5th December so I raised this issue again with them. Why were we not notified about this price increase and how has it come about?

The adviser stated that it was noted on all August Statement that the rate was due to increase. I checked the August statement and there is no such notification.

I advised them on 17th December that they are on notice that every charge since 1st October is in dispute.

So far, they have failed to reply. Currently we have a bill of £191.07 which is due for payment today. I am tempted not to pay it until I get a satisfactory answer. They will put a stop on the account but they have already lost our business potentially as we are signing up with another supplier in the near future.

Is it legally enforceable if they simply increase a rate without notification? Surely not.

As always, your comments are greatly appreciated.

[R0b]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

First thing you always need to check is the contract. The contract will probably have something about the right to increase prices, usually by notification. If it is silent on increases then they wouldn't be able to increase without your permission. Also check if there are terms about disputing a payment, there may be certain procedures to follow, or you may have a time limit on how far back you can claim any overcharged payment. This is a business to business contract so if you have signed up to it without reviewing the relevant terms, it's a lot more difficult to argue the terms are unfair.

However, I wouldn't suddenly stop paying because if there is a length of period the term is meant to last and you give them the ability to do that by refusing to pay you could end up with a claim for a larger amount due to their loss of profits amongst other things.

Check the contract to see if there is any mention of set-off, there probably is but if not you could argue that the amount owed to them on the latest invoice will be set off against the total amount of increased charges to date due to their failure to notify you in accordance with the contract.

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Easier said than done...

I have just emailed them asking for a readable copy of the Terms and Condition under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995.

Just scanned what I have but it is ridiculously small and not readable without seriously straining my eyes and I already wear glasses!!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rd9rv78ruw...tions.pdf?dl=0

I perhaps should also take this opportunity to mention that they have lost and damaged in the region of £600 of goods. We have not received 1p payout.

The one we are particularly annoyed about was lost. Parcels do not get lost. They get stolen by drivers. All their depots have CCTV. If a customer doesn't receive it, then it goes back to the depot and is scanned in again. Their rep said that sometimes labels can fall off. OK - good argument but we know that they are put in an area where unidentified parcels are kept and we had to send information to advise what size the box was (which I am sure they could get off their system as it is laser scanned in a volumiser scanner).

Coupled with the fact that they do not cover the first £50 of any claim even if caused by their own negligence which losing a parcel surely is, we feel very aggrieved with them as a company at this point in time.

I will post in post 4 the letter I received from them regarding the claim on the lost item. They argue about the time it took us to get the paperwork to them and that they had made exceptions but their contract Clause 18.3 states we can start proceedings against them with 12 months which we intend to do for all the losses we have incurred but I need my hand holding through the process as it will be the first time I have done anything like it.

We seem to be losing money hand over fist and we are still struggling with the fallout of having to rebuild the business after last year and the year before. The business remains on its knees and every penny counts now.

It begs the question, why do we business owners do it?

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Letter received from their claims department:-

"Dear Roger,

Thank you for your email.

I have looked over the claim and see the claim was registered on 15/07/15. The claim form was returned on 27/07/15, but no retail or purchase invoices were attached.

Invoices are requested to quantify the cost of the goods and to show the goods being claimed for are the goods that was despatched.

The claim form does state: “The completed claim form, accompanied by the above requested information must be returned by no later than 21 days from the date of this communication by e-mail (e-mail address below), or post, as failure to do so may invalidate your claim.”

There were no copy invoices sent back in with the claim form, had there been, we wouldn’t have asked for copies. We emailed you on 27/07/15 to request these be sent to us by post or email within 14 working days, then again on 25/09/15 we requested these be sent to us by no later than 30/09/15, we gave you another extension on the deadline, Still no copy invoices. On 03/11/15 you then started chasing the claim, with no reply to the email we sent on 25/09/15.

We have given you 75 working days to send us the invoices, 54 days over the 21 day time limit.

Unfortunately, the claim has been closed and we are unable to process this further for the reasons stated above.


Kind Regards,

Kaye Wickens
Claims Department Supervisor
UK Mail Group Plc"

[R0b]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Clause 12: Charges and Pamyent

12.2: Subject to the terms of the rate agreement ... we may vary our rates at any time without prior notice ... for the avoidance of doubt, communications and messages set out in our invoices shall be deemed as notice.

Afraid your scuppered with that one. The only way to get around it is to say that it is an unfair contract term, but as you entered into the agreement as a business, you will have a hill to climb.

As for your claim, did you follow this procedure -> https://www.ukmail.com/docs/default-...s.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Clause 18: Time limits

18.1 We're only liable for loss ... if you notify us within (a) the time limits set out in the Claims Process (b) you make a written claim within the time limits set out in the Claims Process.
18.3 We will not be liable ... unless legal proceedings are commenced within 12 months of the transit.

Their email seems to indicate that you failed to submit a written claim within the 21 working day period and if you failed to do this, then their argument is that you are now out of time. The wording of 18.1 and 18.3 would seem to show that if you followed the correct procedures and didn't make a claim within 12 months of the date of transit then they shall not be liable.

However, you could also say there is a bit of ambiguity here, because I think their lawyers have forgot to add in the words "subject to 18.1" at the beginning of 18.3! Therefore technically speaking they will investigate your claim if you followed 18.1, but 18.3 also seems to give you an additional option to claim within 12 months without following the Claims Procedures. Maybe an error by their lawyers I think?

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Afraid your scuppered with that one. The only way to get around it is to say that it is an unfair contract term, but as you entered into the agreement as a business, you will have a hill to climb.

But is does say "for the avoidance of doubt, communications and messages set out in our invoices shall be deemed as notice".

The chap said that to me and forwarded a copy of the August invoice but it makes NO mention of a rate increase so I am still scuppered?

As for your claim, did you follow this procedure -> https://www.ukmail.com/docs/default-...s.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Probably not in the case of the loss. We were unaware of just how strict their controls were. Lesson learnt the first time. We have a problem here in that we are not allowed to email Amazon customers because it is considered spam even if only to ask them to check a box for damage when it arrives and sign as damaged, unchecked or otherwise. We wrote to Amazon about this because they set us a warning about contacting customers but they never bothered to reply - par for the course, sadly!

Their email seems to indicate that you failed to submit a written claim within the 21 working day period and if you failed to do this, then their argument is that you are now out of time. The wording of 18.1 and 18.3 would seem to show that if you followed the correct procedures and didn't make a claim within 12 months of the date of transit then they shall not be liable.

However, you could also say there is a bit of ambiguity here, because I think their lawyers have forgot to add in the words "subject to 18.1" at the beginning of 18.3! Therefore technically speaking they will investigate your claim if you followed 18.1, but 18.3 also seems to give you an additional option to claim within 12 months without following the Claims Procedures. Maybe an error by their lawyers I think?

Interesting that you say that because that's how I read it but I couldn't have told you that they forgot to put "subject to 18.1" at the beginning of 18.3.

Thanks for that.

One thing that I have just realised having re-read through the claims procedure is that their system only retains about 3 months of tracking and information so I could take that particular loss to court and roll it up with all the other damage they have caused and the judge might ask if I have proof. The only proof I would have is that I have an invoice with the Sales Record number on which relates to the lost item. However, had I have got around to this earlier, I would have been able to save out the complete scan history and consolidation notes and the like so I had a full picture.

If UK Mail turned up, which I doubt they would to a small claims court, they could probably say they never received it. Just because they've charged us for shipping it, doesn't necessarily prove that they collected it? Just playing Devil's Advocate here because I am sure they would.

[R0b]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

But is does say "for the avoidance of doubt, communications and messages set out in our invoices shall be deemed as notice".

The chap said that to me and forwarded a copy of the August invoice but it makes NO mention of a rate increase so I am still scuppered?

Yes is the answer, the fact is that the term says without prior notice. The avoidance of doubt sentence is in there for clarity as someone might try to be a smartass and argue an invoice is not a communication or message and makes it clear that anything stated on an invoice is treated as notice.

by adding the wording subject to 18.1, clause 18.3 is then read and construed differently. Because you would have to read 18.1 in conjunction with 18.3, and therefore someone making a claim outside 21 days but within 12 months would needed to have complied with the claims process to bring a claim against UK Mail. However, in my opinion as it stands, 18.3 would stand alone even though 18.1 says you need to follow the claims process.

One thing that I have just realised having re-read through the claims procedure is that their system only retains about 3 months of tracking and information so I could take that particular loss to court and roll it up with all the other damage they have caused and the judge might ask if I have proof. The only proof I would have is that I have an invoice with the Sales Record number on which relates to the lost item. However, had I have got around to this earlier, I would have been able to save out the complete scan history and consolidation notes and the like so I had a full picture.

If UK Mail turned up, which I doubt they would to a small claims court, they could probably say they never received it. Just because they've charged us for shipping it, doesn't necessarily prove that they collected it? Just playing Devil's Advocate here because I am sure they would.

I agree, UK Mail may argue that it never collected but I think the onus would be on them to prove that they didn't. You have been charged for shipping and I would argue the presumption is that they have collected it, otherwise they should have notified you or at least stated that they never collected and refunded the shipping charges back to you. It sounds like that nothing in their correspondence so far indicates this or has been mentioned, plus they have invoiced you for a bill which (includes?) the shipping charge?

You have the sales receipt and on a balance of probabilities and without evidence to the contrary, I think a judge would accept that the parcel was collected. It would be very poor on UK Mail's part to say that they only retain 3 months of tracking information when they have accepted that claims may be made anytime up to 12 months from the date the parcel was collected/in transit.

Although you can't email, can you not write to the customer, ask them to contact you regarding the parcel and then get them to confirm an email that it was not received?

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Although you can't email, can you not write to the customer, ask them to contact you regarding the parcel and then get them to confirm an email that it was not received?

Cool. This is looking really positive.

I already have emails from the customer because in this case the lost item was purchased through Ebay. The other issues are with Amazon customers' orders where we aren't allowed / supposed to email.

Hopefully we will get the initial costs back too. I will get together all the claims we allege to have against them and compile a list. It would be nice if we got something out of them.

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

An update to the situation...

We have now stopped using UK Mail as our courier and instead are now with Interlink Express. What a breath of fresh air they are! Although they lost a parcel within the first week, they have already paid out on two claims without question or undue difficulty.

UKMail conversely have agreed to reimburse us £80 less £55 admin charge for one of the many lost and damaged parcels totalling probably near on £1000.

They have set us a revised statement totalling nearly £400 which, whilst we are serious debt to HMRC and the business is on its knees, I am unable and reluctant to authorise payment of anything to them.

They have called this morning and said they will take further action now.

I have advised them of Clause 18.3 in the Terms and Conditions, that we are covered under the FSB for legal fees, and that we will counter-claim for the full value of damage and loss of goods in transit.

The poor chap did sound a bit brow-beaten after I had put a flea in his ear. Let's see what they do next!

I don't relish this but I am guessing we have a very good chance if it does get that far and if not, we may just liquidate the company or whatever we can do. Obviously, whilst ever we have a debt to HMRC that surely takes priority over everything else other than putting food on the table?

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

I received a call from UK Mail on Monday offering to reduce the bill to £280 in full and final settlement.

I also called FSB legal helpline but they can only advise over the phone and their advice was not particularly encouraging so it looks as though I am going to have to fight this alone.

As a limited company, what is the worst that can happen? We currently owe around £3000 to HMRC of which part is likely to be reduced by losses in Year End 2014 and 2015, we also owe one other supplier that we feel let us down badly.

At the moment, we are jsut about keeping our head above water, but only just. I am becoming increasing worried about paying the mortgage in the coming months if things do not improve.

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Good afternoon.

Their solicitors have sent us a letter dated 14th March. We use a storage centre for our stock and the staff there failed to notify us of any mail so it has only just been opened today. It gave us 7 days to pay up.

We also have a letter dated 22nd March with a court form in.

I have never been in this position. Do I actually respond to their solicitors?

I have been trawling through some correspondence relating to the damaged items for which we are going to counter-claim (the whole reason why we stopped using them and tried to get them to clear the debt.) The correspondence clearly shows that they failed to deal with claims issues on more than one occasion.

My partner is very worried about this and so am I to be frank. They offered £280 full and final settlement only 9 days ago and now claim has grown to £475 and the enclosed court claim form states additional fees of £50 for court fee and £50 for legal representation costs so totals £575.

They have also put down Derby County Court as the hearing centre. We are based in Nottingham. We cannot be travelling around the country defending ourselves. Does anyone have any sage advice please?

I have also just written to the chap I was dealing with at UK Mail to again request a copy of their Terms and Conditions which comply with the Disability Discriminations Act in terms of legibility. Do they have to provide an easily readable copy?

[R0b]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Good afternoon.

Their solicitors have sent us a letter dated 14th March. We use a storage centre for our stock and the staff there failed to notify us of any mail so it has only just been opened today. It gave us 7 days to pay up.

We also have a letter dated 22nd March with a court form in.

I have never been in this position. Do I actually respond to their solicitors?

I have been trawling through some correspondence relating to the damaged items for which we are going to counter-claim (the whole reason why we stopped using them and tried to get them to clear the debt.) The correspondence clearly shows that they failed to deal with claims issues on more than one occasion.

My partner is very worried about this and so am I to be frank. They offered £280 full and final settlement only 9 days ago and now claim has grown to £475 and the enclosed court claim form states additional fees of £50 for court fee and £50 for legal representation costs so totals £575.

They have also put down Derby County Court as the hearing centre. We are based in Nottingham. We cannot be travelling around the country defending ourselves. Does anyone have any sage advice please?

I have also just written to the chap I was dealing with at UK Mail to again request a copy of their Terms and Conditions which comply with the Disability Discriminations Act in terms of legibility. Do they have to provide an easily readable copy?

Give the court a ring tomorrow and confirm whether or not there is a claim that has been issued against you, it could be a draft copy of the claim form they will issue if they do not hear from you. Usually it will be stamped with a court stamp and there will be a claim reference number in the top right corner to indicate it is valid. But check with the court to be safe.

You should respond to them as they may issue a court claim if they do not hear from you at the address they have been sending the correspondence. You should acknowledge the letter and stipulate that you accept service of proceedings at your current address where you are and supply the address either at the head of the letter or in the body. You may also wish to point out that should the issue the claim, you will be making a counterclaim, potentially might hold them back for a bit while they consider your reasons for counterclaiming.

You can also request a transfer of the claim to be heard at your local court so that you do not need to travel. They should also provide you with a legible copy usually in a huge font on A3 paper or something along those lines.

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Give the court a ring tomorrow and confirm whether or not there is a claim that has been issued against you, it could be a draft copy of the claim form they will issue if they do not hear from you. Usually it will be stamped with a court stamp and there will be a claim reference number in the top right corner to indicate it is valid. But check with the court to be safe.

You should respond to them as they may issue a court claim if they do not hear from you at the address they have been sending the correspondence. You should acknowledge the letter and stipulate that you accept service of proceedings at your current address where you are and supply the address either at the head of the letter or in the body. You may also wish to point out that should the issue the claim, you will be making a counterclaim, potentially might hold them back for a bit while they consider your reasons for counterclaiming.

You can also request a transfer of the claim to be heard at your local court so that you do not need to travel. They should also provide you with a legible copy usually in a huge font on A3 paper or something along those lines.

R0b - Thank you.

The claim is a draft copy to show that they are ready. It is not stamped but some particulars are filled out. I have been through some of the paperwork with my partner who filed the claims and I have to admit to not having been fully aware of the situation. They basically offered an extra £110 off the outstanding balance but I was not clear at the point of saying, "No!" that we were not entitled to only £10 per kilogram compensation as standard. Therefore, the £800's worth of claims are worth £80 each less £55 administration fee.

I cannot see why they are entitled to deduct £55 admin fee when they have been negligent.

Anyway, back to the immediate matter. I nearly called their solicitors today but didn't know what I'd have said so I didn't. I am happy for them to continue to send correspondence to our warehouse as I do not particularly wish to give them our legal registered office address or my home address. We are a limited company and I see this ending up with bailiffs coming to recover goods.

I have a stack of paperwork for emails sent to them querying invoices. However, we never received any response to many of the queries. On more than one occasion, we let it ride and they did credit a few mistakes but the BIGGY is the one where they claim to have notified us of the increase in courier costs. This was received by email at the end of January.

I'd only noticed in December that they had been overcharging us since 1st October. Their Terms and Conditions state they can pretty much ride roughshod over us.

I've attached a couple of points of interest.

Here is a link to their Terms and Conditions also:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rd9rv78ruw...tions.pdf?dl=0

At least I can view it in PDF format by zooming into 400%.

All I require is a large print copy of this from UK Mail but so far they have failed to provide it. I assume you meant that when you referred to an A3 copy?

Having read Clause 16, I think we are stuffed when it comes to counter-claiming for damage greater than what they say they will pay unless Clause 18.3 gives us a get-out. Can it be argued that a contract was repudiated after 1st October as they never sent us notification of the price increase and we never agreed to it? Surely there should be an option to allow us to terminate the contract once we find out they have been overcharging us?

I can run a horse and cart through some of their invoices where they have overcharged us and it doesn't appear in line with what they originally quoted us.

To be honest, after the first few invoices, I got bored trying to query them after I never received timely replies to the queries but I would say that there are a fair few charges which were overcharged.

We actually had special boxes made for the particular goods which we advised them of on several occasions and told them their size but they still kept sending incorrect invoices as they use a 'volumiser' (some kind of laser scanner to measure the overall dimensions of the consignments) and they said that could not be wrong. Basically, our boxes were made to 37 volumetic kilograms and they were charge us up to 42 volumetric kilograms for the same box.

This has just given me another idea. If they are only liable to pay £10 per kilogram as per Clause 16.3, it doesn't state that it isn't volumetic kilograms that they are basing this claim on. Every invoice mentions volumetric kilograms. The odd consignment is measured in kilograms where it is below a certain size. Could I argue therefore that if they have charged volumetric kilograms on a particular consignment for which we have a claim, valid or not, that they should be reimbursing us at the rate of £10 per 'volumetric' kilo?

Sorry this particular post has got a bit lengthy!

[R0b]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Just re-reading the previous posts I made regarding clause 18, you could argue as I pointed out that 18.1 and 18.3 are two separate clauses altogether, and pretty much says the same thing but slightly different.

Paying 55 for adminsitrative fees for which they have accepted liability could venture into the unfair contract term/penalty clause. They've not stated in the terms why they charge the amount even though they accept liability. Certainly seems like an unfair term and definitely a penalty to deter you from actually making a claim. however since the Beavis v Parking Eye / Makdessi case, if they can show it was commercially justifiable then they may have a pass on that clause, but will be up to them to prove that is the case. I'm not sure how you can prove it is commercially justifiable to charge an admin fee when they accept liability for damage/loss - Sure the fee is commercially justifiable if it wasn't their fault and didn't accept liability but that's for judge to decide.

If volumetric weight is heavier than just putting it on the scales then I can't see why you cannot claim £10 per volumetric kilogram. it just says £10 per kilogram of the weight of the package, so it's worth a shot.

[Rhothgar]

Re: UK Mail Supplier Contract

Brilliant. Many thanks for your comments R0b!

Would you know of any case law where it was overturned?