Dealing with DCA's

[Curlyben]

aw:ADMIN NOTE ---- THIS THREAD WAS POSTED IN 2008 - THINGS HAVE CHANGED - SO PLEASE DO NOT USE LETTERS ETC FROM HERE WITHOUT CHECKING FIRST !!!!



Right then, something I have been meaning to do for a while.

Please remember that this advice is NOT meant as debt avoidance, but ensuring that the debt is paid to the legitimate owners, that being the Original Creditor.
After all, if I sent you a bill for £5,000 would you simply pay it without proof.

How to deal with DCA's

First Rule: NEVER talk to them on the phone as they will say anything to secure payment. Keep EVERYTHING in writing as this will supply an excellent paper trail should the need arise.

Second Rule: Admit NOTHING. Now bear in mind that DCA's are simply commission based "agents" and are looking for any admissions that they can use as leverage. It is the DCA's job to prove the debt is owed and valid, not yours to do their job for them.

Third Rule: Always deal with DCA's in a professional manner. Let them rant and rave and make all the threats. They will come unstuck before you do.

Fourth Rule: Stay cool and calm. Yes there is a debt to pay, but on your terms.

Fifth Rule: Well that'll do for now

So on with the show.
I'll be back later to start the ball rolling with a quick overview.


If anyone wants to post anything, comments or questions, feel free.
Bear in mind I'm a BOfH Geek and can go off on tangents and serious detail, so if things need explaining, just ask.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

So what is covered by Consumer Credit Act (CCA) 1974 ?

In a nut shell the following:
Fixed sum Credit (S77), Loans (Bank, etc)
Variable Sum Credit (S78) Cards, catalogues
Higher Purchase (S79) HP agreements.

Utilities, telecoms, broadband, TV, rentals, etc are NOT covered by CCA, but there are ways to make the DCA's work for their money in these cases.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

What does an agreement need to be compliant with CCA ?

As with most Laws there are certain things that are required for compliance.
In terms of CCA these are called prescribed terms

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.


8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

* (s77) amount of credit – see Q8

* (s78) credit limit – see Q8.5
* repayments – see Q8.9.
* rate of interest – see Q8.6

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.


Also check out Peter Bard's excellent thread on the subject: Agreement Enforceability - The Consumer Forums

Yes I know it's an OTR link, but Peter Bard has done some outstanding work with CCA.


So how does all this help us and our debt ?

Well without the correct paperwork, that complies fully with CCA, the DCA's are basically (insert word of choice) stuck.

Now you may notice that there is no mention of signatures here.
Yes without both, yours and theirs, the agreement isn't properly executed.
This can be rectified by court action, assuming the terms are all present.

Of course an agreement that doesn't contain your signature AND personal details is unenforceable anyway. Many DCA's hide behind SI 1983/1557 concerning omitted information, but this DOESN'T apply to a CCA request, I'll explain why later.

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents) regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) is only applicable in conjunction with The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations) 1983 (SI 1983/1569) and are only applicable to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 58,62,63,63 and 64. The CCA request is a statutory request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 77-79 and therefore the copy of the credit agreement requested must be a true copy of the fully executed agreement.

Yes its anal, but that's CCA for you


So that's about it for the agreement.
Yes there is lots more most of which comes with experience.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

So now that's out of the way, let the fun begin.

Normally your first notification of the debt being assigned/sold/farmed out, will be the Goodbye/Hello letter.

The Goodbye is from the OC, although DCA's have been known to do this themselves on OC headed paper, saying your debt has been passed to XYZ DCA.

The Hello letter is XYZ DCA confirming the passage of your debt to them.

This is your Notice of Assignment, for what it's worth.

At this point it is likely that XYZ DCA will start to phone you numerous times a day.
Feel free to ignore these, or simply state that you require EVERYTHING to be in writing for the avoidance of doubt.
NEVER make any acknowledgement or offer payment over the phone.

Once the DCA has the grace to write to you then things start to get interesting.

Now there are 2 routes you can take here.
As an opener, especially if the DCA hasn't produced enough information due to lack of Goodbye/Hello letters, or if they simply state you owe £XXX. A "Prove It" letter goes a long way.

Now this simply requests that they provide further information for you to investigate their claims.
This letter can work for ALL debts, whether CCA regulated or not.

Dear Sir/Madam

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

I/we look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

Nice and easy really.

Now if the DCA has indeed supplied ample information along with the Goodbye/Hello letters then a full CCA request may well be in order.

The site already has the National debtline one here: Legal Beagles.

Personally I like to make DCA's work for me so I use a slightly different approach/

Dear Sir/Madam

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxx
YOUR REF: xxxx

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

With reference to the above account, I request that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement before I will correspond further on this matter.

This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

Your obligation also extends to providing me with a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order, which represents payment of the statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days from the date of this letter.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

Also, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

For the sake of clarity, may I also draw your attention to the following:
Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.175
Where under this Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under the regulated agreement, he shall be deemed to be under a contractual duty to the creditor or owner to transmit the notice, or remit the payment, to him forthwith.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

1. True copy of original signed executed credit agreement
2. FULL Statement of account
3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from (original creditor) and (DCA)
4. A fair processing notice.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.
I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

Now parts 3 and 4 aren't covered in the CCA request, but never hurts to ask for them.
They are likely to say NO to the actual Deed and simply send you the Notice of assignment.

Please note also included here is the fact you want everything in writing, not to be called and NO visits.

DON'T sign this letter, in fact NEVER sign any letter that goes to a DCA. A fancy font or simple name statement is fine and avoids any photoshop specials later on. I Like to sign with my left hand over a random printed line, let em try and use that against me.

Either version requires a £1 payment.
Postal order is best or a cheque drawn by a third party. Some DCA's have been known to use personal information given on the CCA to "acquire" payments without your knowledge.

Normally I would NOT send these requests on the first demand for payment, as they may simply be a phishing exercise, I wait for the second "demand" to hit the mat.

It is best to send this request via recorded/special delivery as there are some important deadlines to observe and is good as supporting evidence.

You must allow 2 working days for delivery, but as you have sent it signed you know when they received it.
If they don't sign for it, then the above applies.
They are also allowed 1 working day for "processing", so the clock starts 3 working days after postage, signed for or not.

After 12 WORKING days the "debt" is in default and stays that way until the request is complied with. While in default the DCA cannot take any further enforcement action, but this doesn't stop some of them making more threats.
If a FURTHER month passes then the DCA has committed a summary criminal offence (now reascended under CCA 2006) and the matter should be referred to Trading Standards for action once the DCA continues to demand payment.

Blimey did I really just type all that.....

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

So what happens next ?

There's a number of things that will happen.

• Supply a compliant CCA
• Supply a NON-compliant CCA
• Completely ignore you and continue to demand payment
• Run off as they have been challenged and basically say they have passed it back to OC
• Go quiet and pass it onto another DCA for action
• Pass it to their "Solicitors" for further threats
• File legal action against you

Now remember you have NOTHING to say to them until they comply with your request OR the 12+month is exceeded. There is little to be gained by reminding them of their statutory duty under CCA. So NO reminder letters or responses to any threats. File everything for later us with either TS or, possibly, the courts.
Quick rule of thumb here:

Loans (s77) agreements tend to be CCA compliant
Cards/Catalogues (s78) agreements tend to be NON-compliant.

Of course there are always exceptions

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Supply a compliant CCA

Well this isn't all that bad.
From here it's a case of getting a SAR into the OC and go for the charges, hence reducing your liability. Now with the OFT action still undecided this makes things a little interesting.

Once a SAR has been sent to the OC then a dispute notice needs to go to the DCA.

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir/Madam,

Your ref:


Thank you for your letter of **DATE**, the contents of which are noted.


I am disputing the total value of these debts with **BANK** due to unlawful and unreasonable charges. As such, therefore, I consider this account to be in dispute and no further action or payment shall be made until this matter is resolved.
As per OFT guidelines Section 2.8k "not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt."

Should you fail to provide me with the required undertaking within 7 days, I shall report your breach of the OFT guidelines to Trading Standards and complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Take notice that I will not discuss this matter on the telephone, and all further communication must be in writing. Any further telephone calls will be perceived as harassment, and dealt with accordingly.

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

While I'm dong dispute notices here's one for the DCA when a disputed debt has been passed to them before it has been resolved with the OC.

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir/Madam,

Your ref:


Thank you for your letter of **DATE**, the contents of which are noted.
I refer to my letter of **DATE** a copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

As holders of a Consumer Credit Licence you are obliged to comply with the Office of Fair Trading Guidelines on Debt Collection. I would therefore be obliged if you would provide me with an explanation as to why you are attempting to collect on an alleged debt which was disputed with **BANK ** prior to your first contact with me, and has yet to be resolved.
As per OFT guidelines Section 2.8k "not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt."

Since this is considered an unfair practice and contrary to the OFT guidelines, you should consider this letter as a formal complaint, and provide me with a copy of your complaint resolution procedure.
I also require you to confirm that you will now comply with the OFT guidelines, and will not attempt any further collection activity whilst the dispute is unresolved.

Should you fail to provide me with the required undertaking within 7 days, I shall report your breach of the OFT guidelines to Trading Standards and the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Take notice that I will not discuss this matter on the telephone, and all further communication must be in writing. Any further telephone calls will be perceived as harassment, and dealt with accordingly.

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

So overall you can see the general gist of things.
You are putting the DCA on notice that you are disputing this debt with the OC and their further action would be in breach of OFT guidelines.
Mix and match as appropriate. The DCA will likely ask what the dispute is about, but that is already covered in the notice you have sent. At this point they should back off, but if they don't then it's time to get Trading Standards/OFT involved. Let the DCA know that this will be your course of action with an LBA, see Formal Complaint below.

OFT collection guidelines are here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...dit/oft664.pdf

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

There is also a NON-CCA formal complaint should the DCA continue to demand payment without validating the debt.

Formal Complaint

Dear Sir/Madam,

thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which are noted.

With reference to my previous letters,I wish to draw you attention to your company's lack of compliance with my reasonable request. I enclose a copy for your perusal and ease of reference.

Your continued pursuit of the alleged debt in this manner contravenes the OFT collection guidelines, namely;
Deceptive and/or unfair methods
2.8b sending demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that
they are the debtor in question,
AND
2.8j requiring an individual to supply information to prove they are not the
debtor in question, for example, driving licences, passports, full name,
date of birth, signatures.

As you clearly cannot prove that this alleged debt in anyway relates to me, I wish to register a formal complaint about your company's business practices.

I require a copy of your internal complaints procedure within 14 days and I reserve the right to escalate this matter to the appropriate regulatory authorities as I see fit.

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I await your rapid response.

Yours Faithfully

Same general idea, but without mention of CCA, more reliance on OFT collection guidelines.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Completely ignore you and continue to demand payment

Well this seems quite normal for DCA Threat-O-Matic machines. They simply churn out meaningless demands without acknowledging your CCA request.

Well these can be filed under ignore until the 12+month is exceeded, then action time.

Account In Dispute

Ref:

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore


You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

This limit has expired.

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.



Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.


I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.
You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully
BLAH

Also time to file a report with TS as the DCA is clearly chasing an unsubstantiated debt.
All the threatening letters you have received should be forwarded to them for action.
Your first point of contact is Consumer Direct and they will forward your report to your local TS for action.

Now remember you are in the right and have merely exercised your rights under CCA and requested documentary evidence that the debt is due.
When dealing with TS be calm and professional, demanding action will simply get their backs up and they will fobb you off with excuses.
It is always best to try and deal with the DCA liaison as they have a better grasp of CCA and OFT collection guidelines and the action that's applicable.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Run off as they have been challenged and basically say they have passed it back to OC

The best result possible !!!
Now steps can be taken with the OC on removal of charges and any F&F settlements.
Best to wait for the OC to contact you, as hasty action may cause serious confusion on their behalf.



Go quiet and pass it onto another DCA for action

Slight variation on the above and sometimes what happens when the debt lands back on the OC's desk.

Now bear in mind you have already CCA'd the first DCA, so another is generally not needed.

Once they introduce themselves and start making demands then my famous "bemused" letter works well.

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE
Dear Sir or Madam,
Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with the **original creditor/DCA** and has been since DATE 2007.
Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

My last letter from **original creditor/DCA** was DATE and intimated that my complaint would be
resolved on **DATE**, this obviously hasn’t happened.
As **original creditor/DCA** are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, OFT Collection Guidelines, *Subject Access request and have also breached *s10 Data Protection Act request , I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the **original creditor/DCA** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as **New DCA** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If **New DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

*- Delete as needed

So this is informing the new DCA of the score.
If they continue to push for payment without the CCA, then a Formal Complaint would be a good next move.



Pass it to their "Solicitors" for further threats

Well this is quite normal as there are a number of "Solicitors-for-hire" out there.
I'm sure you can think of a few.

In this case a nice simple reminder would be an idea.
Let the solicitor know they are onto a losing streak from the get go.

Account In Dispute
Dear Sir/Madam,

Your Ref : xxxxx

Your Client : XXXX

I refer to your letter of xx/xx/2007, which was received today.

Frankly, I am surprised of the need to remind a firm of solicitors about the terms and conditions surrounding my Consumer Credit Agreement request (Consumer Credit Act, 1974); received by XX DCA XX on xx/xx. I can only assume therefore that they failed to inform you.

Should your client now persist with threats of legal action as stated in your letter, I will welcome the opportunity for a judge to look at several offences committed by XXX DCA XX under The Consumer Credit Act, 1974, as well as your client’s non-compliance with and total disregard for the law on this occasion.

Yours faithfully,

And finally should they file court action against you.......

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

So overall I hope you found this informative and enlightening.

Any questions, comments or suggestions ??

Ben

[Celestine]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Thanks so much for all your work on producing this guide Ben.

I've just read it straight through.

I found it really easy to understand and I think it will give those being harassed by DCAs the opportunity to take control of the situation.

I like the way you offer a variety of approaches also.

A brilliant guide.

[Curlyben]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

No problem at all.
This isn't an exhaustive approach and some tweaking is required depending on the situation, but overall this covers most things.

As I mentioned earlier a lot of CCA analyst comes with experience and serious reading

[Amethyst]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Hi Ben

I'm sorry I havent had a chance to read this properly with the attention it deserves yet - but i will !!! I have read bits and its excellent.

I have for months now lol been meaning to write a laymans CCA 74/06 guide - but never seem to get far.

I'll read properly over the weekend.

Ame
xx

[Sapphire]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Ben you're a genius, thanks so much for taking the time to make it all so clear for people to read and digest.:kiss:

[Amethyst]

Re: Dealing with DCA's

Have read this properly now, and really its excellent.

Thank you Ben that really does make things a lot clearer for people.

Peter Bard has done some brilliant stuff OTR, I would however like to get a decent easy to understand guide to enforceablity of agreements and the differences between running and fixed credit.

Also to point out the difference in ones signed pre the removal of 127 and after.

for example =

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

etc.


also

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

Is that a part 18 ? We know they don't comply with these a lot of the time, if the claims small then part 18 doesnt apply in the interest of costs etc, and a lot will not bring up the original signed agreement until the court date. If theres no agreement thats fine but if there is and its kosher they can try for costs.

Defence wise its gets tricky - the acknowledgement can go in, and the part 18, but the defence has to be a denial with right to further pleadings on supply of the information under part 18.

(just thinking out loud to fill in the court gaps really before we get this up on the main forums (if thats agreeable to you CB?)