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CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

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  • CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

    Just received an e-mail from the Martin Lewis site please find attached a sippet :
    Consumers who try to wriggle out of their credit card debts based on a technicality have been dealt a blow after one loophole was closed by the High Court, it is claimed.
    Legal experts insist the decision means the argument that debt cannot be enforced when a lender cannot provide an exact copy of the original credit card agreement, or where the agreement contains a minor error, has been blown out of the water for many (see the Write-off your debt? guide).
    This route, often put forward by claims management firms, has proved a relatively successful avenue for claims and MoneySavingExpert.com has seen limited evidence of lenders no longer chasing borrowers for debt in such circumstances.
    The ruling does not mean an end to the debt-avoidance industry which has grown rapidly over recent months as other avenues may still exist, the Judge in the case said.
    The verdict
    The High Court trial, held at the Manchester District Registry Mercantile Court, involved eight separate claims by consumers against lenders to determine certain legal principles of when a credit card debt can be deemed unenforceable.
    Even if unenforceable, a lender can often demand payment and register non-payment with a credit reference agency which can hit your credit score. It cannot, however, seek a court order to ensure payment.
    Judge Waksman said last week in his ruling:
    • Lenders do not have to provide an exact copy of the original agreement. They simply have to provide "a reconstituted version... which may be from sources other than the signed agreement" under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.
    • As a result, he says lenders will usually be able to supply copies even if not within the required 12 working days.
    • He also agreed with an earlier ruling in October that stated even if a lender cannot provide a copy, the debt is only unenforceable until a copy is provided. And, even while temporarily unenforceable, it does not stop the lender from reporting non-payment to credit reference agencies or from sending letters demanding payment (see the Debt write-off blow MSE News story).
    • In any case, he said the lack of credit agreement alone does not mean the relationship between lender and consumer is "unfair".
    • Where an agreement has been "varied" (eg, where the interest rate has risen), a copy of the original and the varied terms must be produced.
    Upshot of the ruling
    Some claims management firms, such as Cartel Client Review, one of the most aggressive firms which charges an upfront fee, declared the ruling a "victory".
    Carl Wright, from Cartel, says: "The High Court has ratified

  • #2
    Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

    Carey v. HSBC is already on the forum Igotts


    Judgment: Carey v HSBC (section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

      http://www.creditlaw.co.uk/Cases/carey.htm

      Emma Carey v HSBC Bank plc, Shafeel Yunis v Barclays Bank plc, Samantha Conniff v Barclays Bank plc, Mohammed Adris v Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Brian Backwell v Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Rajan Mandel v Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Andrew Light v MBNA Europe Bank Ltd and Robert Atkinson v Bank of Scotland plc.
      Queen's Bench Division, Manchester Mercantile Court 23 December 2009
      These cases arose from concerns at County Courts over the deluge of claims being made via Claims Management Companies (CMCs). Various CMCs were asked to put forward cases which could be taken together to the High Court. The OFT was also represented during the hearing.
      The CMCs raised a number of different issues which were covered in the judgment, covering mostly whether copy agreement rules were satisfied in relation to credit card agreements (s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974). In summary, the findings were:
      (1) s.78 is satisfied if a reconstituted version of the agreement is provided, even where this generated using sources other than the agreement itself;
      (2) the s.78 copy must include the name and address information as per the original agreement;
      (3) the document provided under s.78 need not comply with the form of the signable agreement;
      (4) the creditor must under s.78 provide a copy of any changed terms, or a copy of the amended agreement, in addition to the terms in the original agreement;
      (5) a breach of s.78 does not on its own generate the possibility of an unfair relationship;
      (6) it is up to a court whether it makes a declaration that s.78 is breached, depending on the circumstances which it finds;
      (7) it is a matter of fact whether an agreement is complete with all its prescribed content, but is acceptable for there to be more than one sheet comprising an agreement;
      (8) those cases claiming an unfair relationship should be struck out as merely speculative. There was no evidence on which a claim could be made.
      For full judgment, see here.
      [Comment: most of the issues here just confirm the clear provisions in the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Some of media comment has focused on the ways in which a creditor could now go to court using a reconstituted agreement, and without ever producing the original signed agreement. However, it remains the duty of the claimant to provide "best evidence", so evidence will be required to justify the use of any other than the signed agreement. See CPR 31.16.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

        Above all else, it seems very odd, that the Company does not have to produce a document signed by both parties. Why bother signing anything these days then?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

          Originally posted by Ruby View Post
          Above all else, it seems very odd, that the Company does not have to produce a document signed by both parties. Why bother signing anything these days then?
          Dont forget this judgment was about s78 only NOT about proving theres an valid enforcable agreement

          QCK

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

            Thanks for that. There seems to be something going on today. Please look at my thread Ruby vs Activ Kapital (MBNA), Londoneye's post. A lot of this legal stuff is well over my head and can be read in so many ways (as just proven). Can you or anyone else clarify the significance of the 7th January and/or any news?
            Last edited by Ruby; 7th January 2010, 13:43:PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

              Above links appear to be not working (for me, anyway lol), so:-

              http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/jud...rey-v-hsbc.pdf
              CAVEAT LECTOR

              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
              Cohen, Herb


              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
              gets his brain a-going.
              Phelps, C. C.


              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
              The last words of John Sedgwick

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

                Am so confused and worried now. What does this mean in simple terms?

                Sorry to be stupid!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

                  Hi distressedmam,

                  Have a read of this article:-

                  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/art...#ixzz0cC7QssTA

                  I'm sure someone will be along in a mo to give further assistance
                  CAVEAT LECTOR

                  This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                  You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                  Cohen, Herb


                  There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                  gets his brain a-going.
                  Phelps, C. C.


                  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                  The last words of John Sedgwick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

                    ouch

                    Teasdale v HSBC Bank Plc [2010] EWHC 612 (QB) (23 March 2010)


                    Basis of Costs ordered against Claimants in the CCLS cases
                    62. Mr Ross for Tesco and Ms Tolaney for HSBC seek an indemnity costs order in respect of
                    the claims brought by Mr Cuthbertson and Mr Mills in relation to the costs of those
                    discontinued actions. I have also been informed that once I have determined, after a further
                    hearing, whether Mr Wright and/or CCLS should be liable for costs in those cases brought
                    by CCLS (as CCR has already agreed) there will be applications by at least RBS that CCR
                    and any other additional party made liable should pay the costs awarded already (on a
                    standard basis) against the individual Claimants in the cases of Adris, Brownlow and



                    18

                    Mandal, but on an indemnity basis. On those applications, such additional parties will no
                    doubt be making representations as to the basis of costs. As similar considerations may arise
                    (and which will affect those additional parties) in Cutherbertson and Mills I do not intend to
                    deal with the basis of costs in those actions within this judgment. I will hear Counsel on how
                    best to deal with this following hand-down of this judgment.


                    Judge: Judge Waksman QC


                    Counsel: For Teasdale, Backwell, Brookes and Jemitus: David Uff, James Malam. For Mills, Cuthbertson and Atkinson: No appearance or representation. For HSBC and Marks and Spencer Financial Services: Sonia Tolaney, Richard Hanke. For the Royal Bank of Scotland: Julia Smith. For Bank of Scotland: Fred Philpott. For Tesco Personal Finance: James Ross.



                    Solicitor: For Teasdale and Backwell: BPS. For Brookes and Jemitus: MSB. For HSBC and Marks and Spencer Financial Services: Addleshaw Goddard LLP. For Royal Bank of Scotland: DLA Piper (UK) LLP. For the Bank of Scotland: SCM. For Tesco Personal Financial: Cobbetts LLP.



                    In Carey v HSBC - David Uff and James Malam (instructed by MSB Solicitors) for Emma Carey
                    David Uff and James Malam (instructed by BPS Solicitors) for Samantha Conniff, Brian Backwell
                    and Andrew Light
                    Zoe Thompson and Laura D’Cruz (instructed by Ascot Lawyers Solicitors) for Shafeel Yunis
                    Julian Gun Cuninghame and Bradley Say (instructed by Consumer Credit Litigation Solicitors) for
                    Mohammed Adris, Rajan Mandal and Robert Atkinson
                    Last edited by Amethyst; 26th March 2010, 15:20:PM.
                    #staysafestayhome

                    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                    Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

                      Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                      For the Royal Bank of Scotland: Julia Smith.
                      So this'll be the Julia Smith that co-wrote the Consumer Credit Act and, according to Ingrid Gubbay, correctly predicted the outcome of the Supreme Court bank charges judgment.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: CCA Agreements Thrown Out 30th Dec2009

                        More oh dear.

                        http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/354.html

                        Comment

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